Delay in getting Autosteer/AutoPark and Rain Sensing Wipers - We are owed a Refund

[somnambule]

Haven't seen folks get worked up like this in a while. I'd like to thank @disagree and @jeffro01 for making a spectacle of themselves each trying to sound clever while insulting the other. Bravo.

Hey, maybe you can get them both to agree on disagreeing with your post!

 

[drklain]

That approach is unusual in the automotive industry but not that unusual in the tech world (IT and other high tech industries). SpaceX has orders for lifts (and money) for rockets that haven't even been built yet. Boeing took orders (and money) for the 787 years before the first plane ever flew. People may not like the way Tesla is doing it, but it is certainly not illegal or fraudulent...

 

[AmpedRealtor]

That approach is unusual in the automotive industry but not that unusual in the tech world (IT and other high tech industries). SpaceX has orders for lifts (and money) for rockets that haven't even been built yet. Boeing took orders (and money) for the 787 years before the first plane ever flew. People may not like the way Tesla is doing it, but it is certainly not illegal or fraudulent...

The selling of a future promise is not, in itself, illegal or fraudulent. However, the promise itself might be.

 

[spooky981]

Tesla overpromised and underdelivered, late, on just about every single product or feature they've ever announced. Fortunately living up to 70% of the hype still results in a very good vehicle. But I can't believe anyone still acts disappointed anymore. This is how Tesla operates.

 

[somnambule]

That approach is unusual in the automotive industry but not that unusual in the tech world (IT and other high tech industries). SpaceX has orders for lifts (and money) for rockets that haven't even been built yet. Boeing took orders (and money) for the 787 years before the first plane ever flew. People may not like the way Tesla is doing it, but it is certainly not illegal or fraudulent...

Yes, but most of those have penalties associated with not meeting the promised deliveries, including schedules. Tesla doesn't.

 

[Christopher1]

Embarrassed... Please go buy a pickup

 

[Uncle Paul]

Don't think I have ever seen Tesal "promise" many things. Maybe just a loaded term to make a point, but usually Tesla forcasts their intent, tells what they are planning to do, scheduled to produce, hope to see, or should release pending the data giving support etc.

People tend to upgrade Tesla's intent into magical promises...not fair.

 

[BestRadar]

Don't think I have ever seen Tesal "promise" many things. Maybe just a loaded term to make a point, but usually Tesla forcasts their intent, tells what they are planning to do, scheduled to produce, hope to see, or should release pending the data giving support etc.

People tend to upgrade Tesla's intent into magical promises...not fair.

Really? Hmmm.. Lets see I am still waiting for my Auto High Beams... What does it say below?

WILL BECOME AVAILABLE IN DECEMBER 2016 - This seems like a promise to me. Now they have changed the wording months later to "have begun rolling out"

 

[drklain]

Sorry Best Radar, that's not a promise. That is marketing materials. Your purchase contract explicitly states that only the language in the contract is applicable and that any other statements either orally or in writing are not binding. What you are referencing is marketing material on the website, NOT the purchase agreement you agreed to when you bought the car. That's the problem you and a lot of the people upset simply don't want to accept...no marketing materials used by any car manufacturer are binding. It's only what's in the contract (purchase agreement) that matters. Everything else is not a promise, obligation, guarantee or anything else you choose to interpret it at. People claim that Tesla engages in bad/fraudulent/improper/unethical behavior because marketing materials say that a feature or features are coming and provide a date when they will arrive....but they refuse to accept the caveat on the contract they agreed to when they ordered their car.

If you want to look at a promise made by someone selling something that they don't have to deliver on, read the contract of carriage for a plane ticket you purchase sometime. In the US, the contract of carriage says that the airline is under no obligation to get you from the origin to the destination point of your ticket! Most people don't believe that when I tell them, but it is right there in black and white. Now good business practice means that airlines do their damnedest to get you there and (if they can't) give refunds or credits for future travel, but in many cases they legally are not required to do that.

 

[drklain]

Yes, but most of those have penalties associated with not meeting the promised deliveries, including schedules. Tesla doesn't.

And that's because the contracts people signed with those companies have explicit clauses in them laying out schedules, timelines, penalties, etc. The contract you signed/agreed to when you ordered your Tesla has NONE OF THOSE THINGS. The fact you chose to sign the contract anyway and are now upset that something wasn't delivered by a date which was NOT LISTED IN THE CONTRACT AND IS NOT BINDING is your problem, not Tesla's. You may not like how they do business, but they have NOT broken any promises to you.

 

[drklain]

The selling of a future promise is not, in itself, illegal or fraudulent. However, the promise itself might be.

Good point, but when the promise was not in the contract and the contract explicitly states it is the sole binding agreement and that any other promises are not binding, and the purchaser signs said contract when he/she orders the product, I'd have a hard time believing any judge in the US would rule for a person making a claim for failure to deliver based on some implied promise of marketing materials (web site, Elon's projections, etc.). Of course there are always lawyers willing to find new and creative ways to interpret contract law (and in those cases it seems like the only people who win are the lawyers who bill regardless of the outcome).

 

[NerdUno]

@drklain Do me a favor and post the purchase agreement to which you're referring. Never saw one with my Tesla.

 

[jschwefel]

Hi Jeff,

To be clear, I was thrilled to read another one of your bloviating posts! I apologize if my enjoyment didn't come across in my earlier reply. Es tut mir leid! Although, I'm sure the fellow whose X is presently a nightmare for him and is pursuing a lemon law claim enjoys the respite from your steely gaze.

My bogus claim? Ouch! Did you cut and paste? Anyway, I'm happy to update you. The FTC has heard multiple complaints regarding EAP -- that is to say, it's in their database as a nascent issue (look it up, it doesn't mean "bogus" -- LOL!). As flattered as I am that you think that I think myself so powerful (transference? projection? I tingle to consider!) to motivate action with a single complaint, I can assure you I had no such delusions! But yet so on still, you never can know (well, maybe you can. I'm but a simple man with apparently outrageous standards. The inner turmoil, to ponder!) whether your vote can be the one to elect the orangutang.

Call me!

xo

This got me thinking,...when Tesla is late on Model 3 deliveries, all of us reservation holders can file complaints with the FTC.

 

[drklain]

@drklain Do me a favor and post the purchase agreement to which you're referring. Never saw one with my Tesla.

Sure. The information is in your "My Tesla" page in the documents at the bottom. The relevant files are: (1) Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement, (2) Model S Order Agreement and (3) Terms and Conditions. The Order agreement is simply the purchase agreement (your model, options selected and price) combined with the terms and conditions (presumably the version in effect at the time you executed the agreement). The Motor Vehicle Order Agreement (note the part I bolded in red under "governing law" which says this is the agreement and other promises/statements made are not valid) states:

Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement
Terms & Conditions
Documentation.
Your Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement (the “Agreement”) is made up of the following documents:
1.Vehicle Configuration:
The Vehicle Configuration describes the vehicle that you configured and ordered, including pricing
(excluding taxes and official or government fees). If you are purchasing a vehicle from our inventory, the Vehicle Configuration may be in the form of a Monroney window sticker or a buyer’s guide.
2.Final Price Sheet:
The Final Price Sheet will be provided to you as your delivery date nears. It will include final pricing based onyour final Vehicle Configuration and will include taxes and official or governmental fees.
3.Terms & Conditions:
These Terms & Conditions are effective as of the date you place your order and make your Order Payment(the “Order Date”).

Agreement to Purchase.
You agree to purchase the vehicle (the “Vehicle”) described in your Vehicle Configuration from Tesla Motors, Inc. or its affiliate (“we,” “us” or “our”), pursuant to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Your Vehicle is priced and configured based on features and options available at the time of order. Options or features released after you place your order may not be included in your Vehicle.

Purchase Price, Taxes and Official Fees.
The purchase price of the Vehicle is indicated in your Vehicle Configuration, the Monroney window sticker or buyer’s guide attached to this Agreement, as applicable. This purchase price does not include taxes and official or government fees, which could amount to up to 10% or more of the Vehicle purchase price. Because these taxes and fees are constantly changing and will depend on other factors, such as where you register the Vehicle, they will be calculated closer to the time of delivery and indicated on your Final Price Sheet. You will be responsible for paying these additional taxes and fees.

Manufacturing Process.
Week 1:
We will submit your order to the Tesla Factory for production one week after the Order Date. During this one week period, you may cancel your order or make any changes to your Vehicle Configuration without incurring any costs.

Week 2 until Delivery:
When we submit your order for production, your Order Payment becomes earned and non-refundable.
Because production of your Vehicle is already underway, changes to your Vehicle Configuration during this time will be difficult, if not impossible, for us to accommodate. If you want to make changes to your Vehicle Configuration, we will try to accommodate your request. If we accept your request, you will be subject to a non-refundable $500 change fee and potential price increases for any pricing adjustments made since your original order date. Any changes made to your Vehicle Configuration, including changes to the purchase price, will be reflected in a subsequent Vehicle Configuration that will form part of this Agreement.

Cancellation; Default:
Because your Vehicle is custom ordered, we incur significant costs in starting production of your Vehicle. We also incur significant costs for remarketing and reselling the Vehicle if you cancel or default in this Agreement. As a result, your Order Payment is non-refundable once your order is sent to the Tesla Factory. You acknowledge that the Order Payment amount is a fair and reasonable estimate of the actual damages that we have incurred or may incur, costs that are otherwise impracticable or extremely difficult to determine. We will credit your Order Payment toward the final purchase price of the Vehicle. You acknowledge that this Order Payment and this Agreement are not made or entered into in anticipation of or pending any conditional sale contract.

Inventory Vehicle.
This paragraph is applicable if you are purchasing a Vehicle from our inventory (i.e., the vehicle has already been manufactured, as indicated by an existing VIN, an attached Monroney window sticker or a buyer’s guide). Because we incur significant costs in preparing and coordinating the delivery of your Vehicle, including shipping logistics, your Order Payment is non-refundable. You acknowledge that the Order Payment amount is a fair and reasonable estimate of the actual damages that we have incurred or may incur in transporting, remarketing and reselling the Vehicle, costs that are otherwise impracticable or extremely difficult to determine. We will credit your Order Payment against the purchase price of your Vehicle upon completion of the transaction. You acknowledge that this Order Payment and this Agreement are not made or entered into in anticipation of or pending any conditional sale contract.

Delivery.
We will notify you of when we expect your Vehicle to be ready for delivery at your local Tesla Service Center, or other location as we may agree to. You agree to schedule and take delivery of your Vehicle within one week of this date. If you are unable to take delivery within the specified period, your Vehicle may be made available for sale to other customers. The estimated delivery date of your Vehicle indicated in this Agreement is an estimate only and is not a guarantee of when your Vehicle will actually be delivered. If, on your behalf, we are coordinating the shipping of the Vehicle to you via a third party common carrier, you agree that delivery of the Vehicle, including the transfer of title and risk of loss, will occur at the time your Vehicle is loaded onto the common carrier’s transport (i.e.., FOB shipping point). The carrier will insure your Vehicle while in transit and you will be the beneficiary of any claims for damage to the vehicle or losses occurring while the vehicle is in the possession of a common carrier. To secure your final payment and performance under the terms of this Agreement, we will retain a security interest in the Vehicle and all proceeds therefrom until your obligations have been fulfilled.

Warranty; Privacy Policy.
You will receive the Tesla Motors New Vehicle Limited Warranty at or prior to the time of Vehicle delivery.
You may also obtain a written copy of such warranty from us upon request or download it from your MyTesla account. Tesla’s Customer Privacy Policy is incorporated into this Agreement and can be viewed at www.tesla.com/about/legal.

Limitation of Liability.
We are not liable for any incidental, special or consequential damages arising out of this Agreement. In the event we are held liable for any damages to you, your sole and exclusive remedy will be limited to reimbursement of your Order Payment.

No Resellers; Discontinuation.
Tesla and its affiliates sell cars directly to end-consumers, and we may unilaterally cancel any order
that we believe has been made with a view toward resale of the Vehicle or that has otherwise been made in bad faith. We may also cancel your order and refund your deposit if we discontinue a product, feature or option after the time you place your order.

Governing Law; Integration; Assignment.
The terms of this Agreement are governed by, and to be interpreted according to, the laws of the State in which we are licensed to sell motor vehicles that is nearest to your address indicated on your Vehicle Configuration. Prior agreements, oral statements, negotiations, communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding. We may assign this Agreement at our discretion to one of our affiliated entities.

State Specific Provisions.
You acknowledge that you have read and understand the provisions applicable to you in the State Specific Provisions attachment to this Agreement.

State Specific Provisions
For NEW YORK residents:
if the Vehicle is not delivered in accordance with the Agreement within 30 days following the estimated
delivery date, you have the right to cancel the Agreement and receive a full refund, unless the delay in delivery is attributable to you.

For MASSACHUSETTS residents:
ATTENTION PURCHASER: All vehicles are WARRANTED as a matter of state law. They must be fit to
be driven safely on the roads and must remain in good running condition for a reasonable period of time. If you have significant problems with the Vehicle or if it will not pass a Massachusetts inspection, you should notify us immediately. We may be required to fix the car or refund your money. THIS WARRANTY IS IN ADDITION TO ANY OTHER WARRANTY GIVEN BY US.

For WASHINGTON, D.C.residents:
NOTICE TO PURCHASER IF, AFTER A REASONABLE NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS, THE MANUFACTURER, ITS AGENT, OR AUTHORIZED DEALER IS UNABLE TO REPAIR OR CORRECT ANY NON-CONFORMITY, DEFECT, OR CONDITION WHICH RESULTS IN SIGNIFICANT IMPAIRMENT OF THE MOTOR VEHICLE, THE MANUFACTURER, AT THE OPTION OF THE CONSUMER, SHALL REPLACE THE MOTOR VEHICLE WITH A COMPARABLE MOTOR VEHICLE, OR ACCEPT RETURN OF THE MOTOR VEHICLE FROM THE CONSUMER AND REFUND TO THE CONSUMER THE FULL PURCHASE PRICE, INCLUDING ALL SALES TAX, LICENSE FEES, REGISTRATION FEES, AND ANY SIMILAR GOVERNMENT CHARGES. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS CONCERNING YOUR RIGHTS, YOU MAY CONTACT THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS.

Seller certifies that the information contained in the itemization of the Purchase Price, including the Vehicle Configuration, and required by Chapter 3 (Buying, Selling and Financing Motor Vehicles) of Title 16 of the Code of D.C. Municipal Regulations, is true to the best of our knowledge.

My recollection is that the files were provided or linked to on the order page when I first ordered and then links to them (or attachments) came in the order confirmation email. There was no question that I could view the files before hitting "order" (because I did read them before doing so), I just don't remember exactly where the links were.

 

[NerdUno]

The items you've referenced are completely different for my vehicle ordered in October 2016. None of the disclaimer B.S. exists at all. The actual purchase agreement was dated almost two months after I ordered the car.

As for your documents, I would say it is one thing for a car dealer to disclaim representations made by a salesman when the dealer knew nothing about the claims. It's quite another for a car manufacturer to disclaim its own representations which led a buyer to purchase its vehicle.

 

[disagree]

Pretty clear that the disclaimers do not nullify the vehicle configuration, the content of which was defined by the configurator at the time of order. (In fact, the document above explicitly includes the vehicle configuration as a non-superseded component.)

Anyways, there are limits to what "terms and conditions" can modify or bind.

 

[BestRadar]

Sorry Best Radar, that's not a promise. That is marketing materials. Your purchase contract explicitly states that only the language in the contract is applicable and that any other statements either orally or in writing are not binding. What you are referencing is marketing material on the website, NOT the purchase agreement you agreed to when you bought the car. That's the problem you and a lot of the people upset simply don't want to accept...no marketing materials used by any car manufacturer are binding. It's only what's in the contract (purchase agreement) that matters. Everything else is not a promise, obligation, guarantee or anything else you choose to interpret it at. People claim that Tesla engages in bad/fraudulent/improper/unethical behavior because marketing materials say that a feature or features are coming and provide a date when they will arrive....but they refuse to accept the caveat on the contract they agreed to when they ordered their car.

If you want to look at a promise made by someone selling something that they don't have to deliver on, read the contract of carriage for a plane ticket you purchase sometime. In the US, the contract of carriage says that the airline is under no obligation to get you from the origin to the destination point of your ticket! Most people don't believe that when I tell them, but it is right there in black and white. Now good business practice means that airlines do their damnedest to get you there and (if they can't) give refunds or credits for future travel, but in many cases they legally are not required to do that.

I re-read all my paperwork and I dont see anything other than an agreement stating that I would receive a vehicle based on my listed configuration which of course includes:

Enhanced Autopilot $5,000
Full Self-Driving Capability $3,000

Absolutely nowhere does it say that I will receive these features sometime in the future other than the text that was on the website at the time I ordered it from the website.

 

[shonline]

Here we go... I was wondering how long this would take to become an issue.

For what it's worth, the rain sensing function sucks... It's either not wiping or wiping way too much, I just gave up on intermittent wipers. Manually tap to wipe in the city, RainX and no wiping on the highway.

Maybe after the recent rains in California somebody is thinking of a fix.

The rain sensing function in my AP1 car is not as sensitive as I'd like either. It's no wonderland, believe me.

 

[BestRadar]

The rain sensing function in my AP1 car is not as sensitive as I'd like either. It's no wonderland, believe me.

Instead of getting an improved sensor they entirely removed the sensor from HW2 vehicles and plan to use the cameras to determine when wipers should be needed. They are relying on cameras to do everything and I think that is a big mistake.

 

[spooky981]

I think both sides have a very good point. On one hand there is nothing contractually requiring Tesla to deliver on all of the promises and marketing bullshit they've talked about. So suing is off the table. On the other hand, Elon runs his mouth about an awful lot of stuff that isn't even on the drawing board yet and sells cars as a result of it. Can only get away with that for so long.