EAP Class Action Settlement 7-26-18

[whitex]

I like my Tesla.
I like my EAP.
I did not ask to sue Tesla.
I do not appreciate being included in this suit.

I've been in other class action suits. I had some stock that took a huge loss. I got a check for $0.20 a share, a downright laughable amount. The lawyers, though, they didn't even have the stock, they got millions.

So we each spend $5000 for EAP. These people assume I am as unhappy as they are. Then they think it is worthwhile to settle for $250 each. Do they know $250 is only 5% of $5000? The sales tax on that $5000 was more than that.

These people that sued did me no favors. They did extract money from the car company that I have a great deal of interest in seeing succeed, and they turned a great deal of that money over to lawyers.

Whoever did this doesn't seem very bright.

Someone could claim they bought a 100k Model S for the sole purpose of FSD, and if it never shows, they want all their money back, the entire 100k, not just the FSD fee. If you argue that they got some value out of the car over the year, sure , then Tesla owns the equivalent salary of a full time driver for however many years would be considered reasonable car lifespan ($40K per year, 10 years, 400K in what it costed to replace the missing FSD functionality).

 

[Cheburashka]

I like my Tesla.
I like my EAP.
I did not ask to sue Tesla.
I do not appreciate being included in this suit.

I've been in other class action suits. I had some stock that took a huge loss. I got a check for $0.20 a share, a downright laughable amount. The lawyers, though, they didn't even have the stock, they got millions.

So we each spend $5000 for EAP. These people assume I am as unhappy as they are. Then they think it is worthwhile to settle for $250 each. Do they know $250 is only 5% of $5000? The sales tax on that $5000 was more than that.

These people that sued did me no favors. They did extract money from the car company that I have a great deal of interest in seeing succeed, and they turned a great deal of that money over to lawyers.

Whoever did this doesn't seem very bright.

Yeah I agree. The lawsuit itself is a joke. The only people happy from it are the lawyers.

Wonder what will happen with FSD down the road. "Subject to validation and regulatory approval" was the text I remember. Ten you go to check California DMV autonomous vehicle reports, and turns out Tesla consistently logs 0 self-driving miles..

 

[AnxietyRanger]

As you noted with the Design Studio screenshot from the time, the full EAP was supposed to come in December, 2016. Some delay was to be expected, but nobody expected it to be years (22 months and counting, now).

"Nobody" is a bit of a stretch. Those of us who bought into Tesla's previous marketing (691hp P85D - passing speed upgrade coming over the air soon! - delivered 463hp and an excuse that the car is capable, but no the drive train) and Elon's promises (AP1 will find you anywhere on private property - delivered drive up to 40ft in a straight line while you hold a dead-man-switch making sure the car doesn't hit anything) tried to warn the rest of the community, but only to get flamed by fanboys.

I'm not a native English speaker, so I'm not sure about the linguistics, but my intent of course was never a literal "nobody". My intent was in the sense that the prevailing and even uncharacteristically clear majority opinion at the time - on TMC - was that Tesla had pulled out a rabbit from the hat with AP2. On EAP especially, this was not a controversial belief IMO. Yes, I admit, I bought into the hubris too (literally! EAP+FSD) - and I was fully aware of the P85D disaster by then and understood the unfolding P90DL debacle as well.

There was a lot more scepticism around full FSD. I have always been in the camp who doubts the sufficiency of the sensor-suite because I'm so familiar with what the Germans are doing in the sensor space, but EAP and some 8 camera (FSD related) features seemed a clear-cut case for a very clear majority. Some delay? Sure. But 22 months without full AP1 parity and only a smidgeon of "enhanced" in the turning angles? Even I could not have possibly been that pessimistic... and was not. People call me a "care bear", but I clearly didn't care or bear enough.

You were right, of course, and the rest of us who believed were wrong. There are no two ways about it. Tesla took us for a ride.

Anyway, I hope that is now clear.

 

[daktari]

Pity you all don’t enjoy your Tesla, the same car thousands of others praise and rate the best car they’ve ever owned. And that’s not to mention the tens of thousands who are currently purchasing the newest Tesla Model 3.

Some people just want to tear down the first American car company that’s producing innovative cars people are willing to spend 2 to 3X more for than they’ve ever paid for a car.

Good luck with being miserable.

Sorry, since you are the master FUD Buster, I think you misinterpret the FSD/AP2 marketing scam as FUD, even if us fans are pointing out we would like Tesla to do better. "One only sees the trees in their own forest..." or as we say in my country, "It can be hard to separate the snot from the mustache".

 

[daktari]

What did AP1 cost before EAP? It was called the "autopilot convencience features" or something, and if I recall correctly, they bumped the price by 40% or something. One could argue that EAP is worth this premium - IF we get something on top of AP1. At the moment that has not yet materialized.
Get profitable in Q3 and pay us all back the premium, that would be a decent thing to do.

And remember this time last year, @calisnow betted $10.000,- to charity that within March 2018 we would have somethin extra tha AP1 did not? He had half a year, so I also had confidence...

 

[Joe F]

So, for the record so you can pull this out in the future, FSD in AP2 will NEVER do what Tesla marketing implies (ride-sharing where your car drives your family around, goes drop you off at work, picks up your kids from school, etc or joins Tesla's ride sharing network where it drives strangers around and pays you money), or what Elon tweeted (summon the car across the country). Yea, I'm sure, just like with 691hp, they'll tell you the car is capable except for some vital piece they can't retrofit for free (or at all).

So for the record, I've stated this in the past on TMC. Not because I didn't believe they couldn't pull it off, but more because I'm not about to trust my or passengers life to any vehicle to handle every corner case. I'll always be the corner case watcher behind the wheel, and if I hailed a ride share in the future because I traveled via air and did not have my car, and it shows up with no driver or manual controls, I'll pass and send it on its way without me.

 

[Joe F]

Who said anything about being bitter?

Tesla should he held accountable for misleading customers, that's all I'm trying to say.

Got it. You don't own a Tesla.

 

[rnortman]

These people that sued did me no favors. They did extract money from the car company that I have a great deal of interest in seeing succeed, and they turned a great deal of that money over to lawyers.

I am 100% in agreement with this. Class actions were designed by and for lawyers. They serve a real purpose as a deterrent to companies, but they never achieve anything like fair compensation for the consumers.

That said, Tesla needs to have a reckoning with consumers about that demo video and the marketing language around EAP and FSD (which persists to this day, and they are now selling hundreds of thousands of Model 3's with that demo video still live). I would wish that instead of that reckoning taking the form of a class action, it would take the form of some voluntary action on Tesla's part.

Fat chance, I know.

 

[rnortman]

I'll always be the corner case watcher behind the wheel, and if I hailed a ride share in the future because I traveled via air and did not have my car, and it shows up with no driver or manual controls, I'll pass and send it on its way without me.

This is off-topic for this thread, but just out of curiosity, will you still feel this way when AVs are demonstrably safer than human drivers by a significant margin? Like backed up by real hard data collected over a long period of time and millions of miles/hours driven? Would you also insist that your doctor treat your infection with the old reliable leaches because antibacterials can't handle every "corner case"? (I.e., you might have a resistant strain...)

Slightly less off-topic for this thread: What value do you intend to extract from the "FSD" option if you are going to watch it like a hawk all the time, ready to take over on a moment's notice?

Completely on-topic for this thread: You personal anecdote about why you purchased FSD and what you personally expect to get out of it is irrelevant to the discussion of what consumers as a whole reasonably expected and deserve to get out of it based on Tesla's marketing of that option, and what legal consequences that may or should have for Tesla.

 

[boonedocks]

I am 100% in agreement with this. Class actions were designed by and for lawyers. They serve a real purpose as a deterrent to companies, but they never achieve anything like fair compensation for the consumers.

That said, Tesla needs to have a reckoning with consumers about that demo video and the marketing language around EAP and FSD (which persists to this day, and they are now selling hundreds of thousands of Model 3's with that demo video still live). I would wish that instead of that reckoning taking the form of a class action, it would take the form of some voluntary action on Tesla's part.

Fat chance, I know.

Maybe we should make a class action case against class action lawyers and make it so they from now on can only earn a "fair" hourly compensation for work done as payment. Not a 80% (or whatever it is I really have no idea just that it is too much) of the pot of cash.

 

[Joe F]

[-snip-]
You're changing the subject. This isn't about whether Teslas are good cars, or whether they're better than the competition, or whether Tesla should have included Autopilot hardware on new cars to prepare for future delivery of EAP and FSD. This is about whether they should have sold EAP and FSD under false pretenses (which as my previous post states, was the combination of the 2016 demo video, option descriptions that talked about validation and regulatory approval but not R&D, and some very specific timelines that they put in writing and then completely missed).

They could have started putting in the hardware and even taking "pre-orders" for EAP and FSD while being very upfront about the state of development. But they misled us with the BS demo and marketing language, and they took orders, not pre-orders, and they accepted payment in full right up front. That was among the most idiotic things Tesla has done and I am shocked that the legal consequences have so far been so mild for them. The class action settlement that this thread is about is a joke.

I can understand your position. I understood the video as being where they were heading with the product, as I recall they even stated that. Future tense.

I don't believe I'm changing the subject, not when it comes to delivering S/W which can be changed as regulations change, and designing the H/W such that is's easily upgradable. Waiting for regulators would be a multi year setback, as your post suggest Tesla should have done:

1. The "direction change" in S/W is a great illustration of why you should never sell and accept payment for a product you have not yet developed. Development is too uncertain. You want to take on investment capital to develop a product? Go ahead -- kickstarter, VC funds, and the stock market are all there to help. You don't do it by selling a product that doesn't exist.

EAP exists in the H/W as described, and (mostly) the S/W. Unfortunately the development direction changed, causing a setback in their delivering the described features in their entirety. I have no reason to believe it's not doable however, and feel it's going to be available soon. FSD features not included it that statement, EAP only.

As for the competition, they're catching up quickly. I sort of doubt our next car will be a Tesla. (I say this because we're not going to be due for a new car for 4-5 years at least, and there's also a very good chance that these will be the last cars we ever own if real autonomous vehicles are available and the Carpocalypse happens by then, which frankly is what I'm rooting for. But even if it doesn't, I bet at least one other automaker will be highly competitive with Tesla in 4-5 years.)

We shall see. So far, the competition has released two Tesla "killers" that will do nothing other than put an also ran in the footnotes of the EV evolution. This after years of development. Competition is a good thing, but they have years of catching up to do at this point.

Good to hear you're happy with the MS enough to consider a M3. Sorry that Tesla has not met your expectations with the S/W timeline.

 

[Joe F]

Sorry, since you are the master FUD Buster, I think you misinterpret the FSD/AP2 marketing scam as FUD, even if us fans are pointing out we would like Tesla to do better. "One only sees the trees in their own forest..." or as we say in my country, "It can be hard to separate the snot from the mustache".

I never claimed to be a master of anything, and refuse to be baited by someone who appears to be a master baiter.

 

[rnortman]

Waiting for regulators would be a multi year setback, as your post suggest Tesla should have done:

Where did I ever say anything about waiting for regulators? I did not intend to say anything about that, but while we're on the subject, many companies are going full-bore on AV development (Waymo for longer than Tesla for example) without waiting for regulations to catch up. Many of those companies are putting a lot of resources into helping to bring the regulations forward while they develop the tech. (Tesla is doing nothing to advance progress on regulations from what I can see, and you could argue that their aggressive marketing of nonexistant FSD has set back progress on regulations by making the public more wary and distrustful.)

We shall see. So far, the competition has released two Tesla "killers" that will do nothing other than put an also ran in the footnotes of the EV evolution. This after years of development. Competition is a good thing, but they have years of catching up to do at this point.

And my statement was that in 4-5 years there will be at least one viable competitor. Tesla is ahead right now but I don't think their rate of progress is as fast as their competitors; i.e., their lead is shrinking. The low-hanging fruit in Tesla's orchard is already harvested.

 

[Joe F]

This is off-topic for this thread, but just out of curiosity, will you still feel this way when AVs are demonstrably safer than human drivers by a significant margin? Like backed up by real hard data collected over a long period of time and millions of miles/hours driven? Would you also insist that your doctor treat your infection with the old reliable leaches because antibacterials can't handle every "corner case"? (I.e., you might have a resistant strain...)

Slightly less off-topic for this thread: What value do you intend to extract from the "FSD" option if you are going to watch it like a hawk all the time, ready to take over on a moment's notice?

Completely on-topic for this thread: You personal anecdote about why you purchased FSD and what you personally expect to get out of it is irrelevant to the discussion of what consumers as a whole reasonably expected and deserve to get out of it based on Tesla's marketing of that option, and what legal consequences that may or should have for Tesla.

Feel free to sit in your back seat and take a nap. Might be the last thing you ever do.

My reasons are mine, backed up by over 50 years of seeing things that should put anyone on guard at all times. You can have your own opinion of a fully autonomous vehicle.

Feel free to hit disagree below as that appears to be something you enjoy. Have at it if it makes you feel better about life.

 

[Joe F]

Wasted enough valuable time on this thread. Those who have strong views on the topic are not going to change their opinions, on either side.

Feel free to argue amongst yourselves, but life's too short to quibble over things like this. Time to move on.

 

[Joe F]

And my statement was that in 4-5 years there will be at least one viable competitor. Tesla is ahead right now but I don't think their rate of progress is as fast as their competitors; i.e., their lead is shrinking. The low-hanging fruit in Tesla's orchard is already harvested.

Parting thought as I just noticed this: So you're saying both Mercedes and Audi aren't viable competitors to Tesla, despite their overhyped cars depicted in the press and the hopes of the Tesla shorts as being the start of the demise of Tesla? Perhaps you missed their introductions the other week?

 

[rnortman]

Parting thought as I just noticed this: So you're saying both Mercedes and Audi aren't viable competitors to Tesla, despite their overhyped cars depicted in the press and the hopes of the Tesla shorts as being the start of the demise of Tesla? Perhaps you missed their introductions the other week?

I haven't personally evaluated these cars, but from what I've seen they are not going to be as good as Tesla's current generation nor can any of them match the volumes Tesla is currently achieving with the Model 3. Plus the Supercharger network alone makes it nearly impossible to compete with Tesla right now, even if somebody managed to put together a great car and manufacture it in volume. The Supercharger network was among the smartest ways Tesla has spent Wall Street's money. (Probably smarter overall than the much-hyped Gigafactory and particularly the associated "alien dreadnought" ultra-automation fantasy of Elon's.)

Now the flip side of that coin is that once there are more non-Tesla DC fast chargers, a vast chunk of Tesla's competitive advantage disappears. Again, remember I said 4-5 years -- nobody can build a charging network overnight, but they can do it given 4-5 years, especially if multiple manufacturers partner together and bring in some heavy muscle like Exxon or BP (which seems highly likely to me).

 

[Joe F]

Now the flip side of that coin is that once there are more non-Tesla DC fast chargers, a vast chunk of Tesla's competitive advantage disappears. Again, remember I said 4-5 years -- nobody can build a charging network overnight, but they can do it given 4-5 years, especially if multiple manufacturers partner together and bring in some heavy muscle like Exxon or BP (which seems highly likely to me).

Let's agree to meet after 4-5 years. I'll buy the beer.

 

[whitex]

I'll always be the corner case watcher behind the wheel, and if I hailed a ride share in the future because I traveled via air and did not have my car, and it shows up with no driver or manual controls, I'll pass and send it on its way without me.

There are airports today which require you to take a driverless train or a bus to get from the remote terminal where you land to the main one. I assume if you ever fly into one of those, you just whip out your credit card and purchase first ticket out, either back to where you came from or at least to some neighboring airport which you hope will not have driverless trains you have to take?

 

[Joe F]

There are airports today which require you to take a driverless train or a bus to get from the remote terminal where you land to the main one. I assume if you ever fly into one of those, you just whip out your credit card and purchase first ticket out, either back to where you came from or at least to some neighboring airport which you hope will not have driverless trains you have to take?

Well defined route, low not high speeds. And trains are on tracks.

Feel free to use your imagination as to what I'd do.

EDIT: Thinking about it, I recall a driverless airport vehicle had crashed on its first day of service, fortunately at low speeds. And, what you postulate is beyond the scope of my stating I'd hail a ride share vehicle.