I agree. But I got a headache the first time I read it . Wont do that again. My point is simple, and coming from a bad experience with an Audi Q8 that was in the shop more than in my possession in the first year, I just wanted it to end. And it did when I hired an attorney, and was made whole. The point I'm making is you go into these commitments and are looking forward to having a blast and when it goes to S$%T, you just want it to end. I still remember the first time I drove my '14 Model S and my buddy who was the only collision center in NY told me if you go for a test drive bring your checkbook. I bought it on the spot. Absolute best car experience ever. I just cant stand the nonsense around being called a liar and people getting trashed for THEIR experience. No money is worth it and the guy just wants out. I wish him luck.
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The 2 Best Days In a Plaid Owner’s Life
- Thread starter emailforbrett
- Start date
As an aside I just sold my '20 Model S. My son turns 17 in July and I didn't want him learning on it. Sad to see it go and will probably come back in the fold in a few years. I put on here about 2 weeks ago for 49K. Had 1 inquiry and I wound up selling privately for what I feel comfortable with. A couple of thousand either way wont make me sweat and the relief is I got rid of it. Last April I was looking to trade into a BMW 5 series but knew about the refresh so I decided to wait. The trade in value then was $53500, but timing for new 5 was 6 months out. Right before I sold it trade in was 40-42. ! year and 4000 miles added. So it sucks and wont complain. Waiting for the new car, and life goes on.
I agree, in part.
If you're told the price of something is X, then under the normal run of things you can safely rely on that as the price of entry, for everyone.
I don't think it's unreasonable to be upset if it the price of it is then cleaved by over 30% overnight, because it's basically unheard of elsewhere.
If something is priced far in excess of the bill of materials, it is said to be a Veblen good, which is fine so long as everyone involved - including the purchasers - participates in good faith. The manufacturer keeps the price at a certain level, a buyer purchases it knowing (or believing) that this price is reliable.
I think of it along the lines of "you can shear a sheep many times, but you can only skin it once". Dunking on your own customers from orbit with $40k price cuts just means they're going to be reticent to buy from you again. I'd suggest it's not fiduciarily responsible.
Of course this is all against a backdrop of no one actually needing to spend that sort of money on these cars, or indeed any car.
My 2023
Tesla is in the car selling business, not the preserve customer's trade-in values business. The market dictates cost. If the cars stop selling at the advertised price then what exactly would the people concerned about their trade-in values like Tesla to do? Go out of business completely or lower costs to continue moving units and gaining market share? The EV sector is highly competitive right now. Anyone who doesn't understand that shouldn't be buying an EV.I agree, in part.
If you're told the price of something is X, then under the normal run of things you can safely rely on that as the price of entry, for everyone.
I don't think it's unreasonable to be upset if it the price of it is then cleaved by over 30% overnight, because it's basically unheard of elsewhere.
If something is priced far in excess of the bill of materials, it is said to be a Veblen good, which is fine so long as everyone involved - including the purchasers - participates in good faith. The manufacturer keeps the price at a certain level, a buyer purchases it knowing (or believing) that this price is reliable.
I think of it along the lines of "you can shear a sheep many times, but you can only skin it once". Dunking on your own customers from orbit with $40k price cuts just means they're going to be reticent to buy from you again. I'd suggest it's not fiduciarily responsible.
Of course this is all against a backdrop of no one actually needing to spend that sort of money on these cars, or indeed any car.
Some would say that I overpaid for a new M3P in 2022 at the tail end of the supply shortage for $63,000.00. I then turned around and bought a greatly reduced Model S LR for $74,000.00. Overpaid for one car, and then underpaid for another. Gotta roll with the market fluctuations and take your lumps.
I'd suggest maybe that's a bit of an immature view of it? If Tesla can't sell cars without whipsawing the price, then I dunno what to say really.. maybe they need to get better at dealing with market forces?
Do Porsche or other manufacturers drop the price of their stuff overnight by 30%+? Do the likes of Apple etc? The former are playing in the same markets with the same challenges and the same headwinds coming around the corner, etc. Pricing that doesn't feel like it's being pulled out of a hat has brand value.
Obviously Tesla have to drop the price if they're not selling cars, but my point was that these decisions have reverberating effects. if I was on the wrong side of a $40k overnight drop I would be (rightly) miffed, and severely upside down on depreciation/financing in the short term, etc.
Tesla don't have a duty to their customers to maintain prices, you're right, but it's not a choice without consequences. That Model S/X driver that took that hit might not buy another Tesla, at any price. Dealers who might have otherwise offered decent trade in prices might hesitate because they don't know what's going to happen in a few weeks time... etc.. etc.
Do Porsche or other manufacturers drop the price of their stuff overnight by 30%+? Do the likes of Apple etc? The former are playing in the same markets with the same challenges and the same headwinds coming around the corner, etc. Pricing that doesn't feel like it's being pulled out of a hat has brand value.
Obviously Tesla have to drop the price if they're not selling cars, but my point was that these decisions have reverberating effects. if I was on the wrong side of a $40k overnight drop I would be (rightly) miffed, and severely upside down on depreciation/financing in the short term, etc.
Tesla don't have a duty to their customers to maintain prices, you're right, but it's not a choice without consequences. That Model S/X driver that took that hit might not buy another Tesla, at any price. Dealers who might have otherwise offered decent trade in prices might hesitate because they don't know what's going to happen in a few weeks time... etc.. etc.
It's immature to think that Tesla has any obligation to you post-purchase other than to service your vehicle while it's within warranty. For those who feel burned, there are plenty of other manufactures out there. Good luck. I sold a house that's worth $400k more now than it was worth at the time that I sold it. Should I go cry about the housing market too?
Your house sale has no comparison to this situation at all. None
MikeChicago
Member
You make a valid point about trading it with Mercedes and, depending on the state, he may have offset some of the taxes. Perhaps OP will chime in with a comment on this point.
That aside, I don’t think he necessarily “missed out,” on higher offer considering one was not available. Private sale required time (which is money for most of us) and effort (which can be divert elsewhere). Plus, there is the risk of being scammed or worse. People are weird these days. I remember my parents sold their Saab many years ago and were pretty stressed out when the test drive took over two hours with zero communication from the buyer. Who wants to deal with that s****? I certainty don’t.
I did the same with our Lemon Model Y and lost decent amount of money but I value my time and my sanity more. It’s simple economics, really. It ultimately boils down to what is worth more to you as an individual. He made the best decision, for him, at that time with what he had at hand. Makes sense to me.
MikeChicago
Member
I agree that such a steep drop overnight is harsh. I remember seeing someone fuming because they took delivery a couple of days before the drop. I’d be unhappy as well.
Tesla could very well rectify this situation by simply offering free software upgrade, issuing some free supercharging credit, offering to provide gap insurance for say year or come up with another customer retention policy, like a bonus trade in value or whatever. That’s what a customer centric company would do, in my opinion. Again, I don’t blame Tesla. They don’t have an obligation to maintain your resale value and no doubt would argue that at the time of purchase both parties agreed to set price. That’s a fact. They could have handled it better, for sure.
If you still don’t see that point, I’d like to ask you this… Tesla just reinstated extra cost on paint color selection. I got the ultra red included in the price. Today I’d pay more. Should I now write a check to Tesla for $2,500 to make them whole? Or course not. Why would the opposite be true?
Dang, bro. That is a heck of a price on that. You're right, these things are like windows laptops.
I came super close end of last year to buying a second tesla (bought first in the summer). Depreciation was one reason I didn't. Another was the repair situation with them. Although I have a service center in my city, my experience with a fender dent being quoted out as a $10k repair was very much demoralizing, and I ultimately wanted to limit my risk by not having more than one Telsa. Insurance (because of repairs) on teslas is a catastrophe, IMO. They need more repair shops desperately, and need to get repair costs cut down.
As for OP it's obviously unacceptable to pay through the nose for a vehicle you can't reliably use. Dumping the car before warranty ended (assuming no purchase of extended) sounded wise, although he took a bath on resale and the huge bulk of that was eaten up in the first two years.
I disagree. At least on its face the argument seems quite appropriate to me.
Similarly, if I buy an iPhone for $800 and then next week the black friday deal comes out and it's $600 I would be irritated--absolutely!--but I would not expect Apple to refund me anything. I'd be irritated at the universe and bad timing, but I wouldn't blame apple.
Daytonaviolet
Member
My plaid has been to SC a few times, recently for the Track Package. I have n2itive links and arms, they didn’t say anything. They just did the install. No issues.
My statement has nothing to do with that. He was talking about selling a house worth 400K more than when he bought it. And not crying about it. Who would cry about making more ? Regardless of the situation it sucks to lose money when things end with a car because th experience for HIM sucked. And it did SUCK badly. I was there with another brand, Audi, and it was awful, not knowing if it would break down with me and or my family with me. That is hard to get over. And being forced to get rid of it earlier than expected because of that sucks. Hopefully it never happens to you truly.
And BTW a big difference losing $200 on an iPhone and tens of thousands on a car. Again comparing Apples to Houses and applying them to cars doesn't work for me.
See how I did that there ?
And I don't say this as a means for an argument. Just as someone who lived through an extremely bad situation with a bad vehicle sees it.
Not sure where to begin on this one but will take a stab at it.
First of all a lot of people lease for tax reasons, possibly a business, where leasing is much easier accounting wise VS a purchase. So certainly leases have benefits for some to consider. Additionally, if you want to drive a new car every couple of years it removes the headache of dealing with selling it. Also, leasing is "insurance" in a sense that if you have an accident for example and the car had major repairs you know you are off hook in a couple of years and you are not dealing with diminished value. Since with most companies (but Tesla) you can buy the car at the end of the lease, it is also insurance that if prices plummet you can give it back, but if they are up you can buy it and sell it. So it is a very smart financial decision for people who understand leases. And here we go:
You seem to imply that you negotiate residual and MF (Money factor which is the lease interest rate). You are probably talking about third party leases, but the majority of people lease from the manufacturer's financial arm. Why? See paragraph after next. There is no auto manufacturer financial arm out there that allows dealers to set/negotiate residual. The manufacturer provides it on a monthly basis per model. So for example, Mercedes FS (financial services) will say that the residual for this car is 50% for 15k miles a year. If so, then that is it and the dealer cannot change it.
All manufacturer financial arms also set the MF (lease interest rate) for each model. They do have specific guidelines of how much the dealer can "play" with them, effectively raising the interest rate. For example again, BMW dealers are able to markup MF by .0004, which is about 1%. So if the MF for the specific model is set at 0.001 (2.4% - just multiply money factor with 2400 to get actual interest rate), and dealer adds 0.004 they effectively making the interest rate about 3.4% earning the increase. So the only things negotiable are making sure you get the base MF, best discount you can get and find and include all the incentives available to you. But this is exactly the same with financing (and really purchase too expect you don't have to pay attention to MF/Interest rate)!
Manufacturer financing arms usually support leases a lot - many times they inflate residuals to move specific models, so there are deals to be had. For example, most (including Tesla now) pass the $7500 tax credit when you lease, and because they are getting it as a corporate entity, the same rules (MSRP under $80k and income limitations) do not apply. So there are instances right now that it makes sense to lease a $150k car, get the credits and buy it if you want to keep it.
Many times it makes sense to buy the car at the end of the lease and, as I mentioned, residual is set - not something you negotiate. Especially the past couple of years with the hot used car market a lot of people made money by just selling or buying and selling their leases just because the residual (pay-off) was lower than the offers they were getting. Nobody could have predicted that 2-3 years ago.
So a lease is just another financing vehicle that has many benefits for many as long as how leases work is understood, and really it is pretty easy. So generalizing and saying that leasing is never a good financial decision may be too much.
Now, if we talk about Tesla leases, there is nothing to negotiate and nothing to buy at end of lease. They are also crazy inflated, especially for S and X. But they still make sense for some because:
- Business reasons and accounting simplification
- You know you will want a new car in 2-3 years
- Considering you cannot even drive your car before buying it you know, no matter what, you will live with it for a specific period of time, max
- Considering the market and Tesla price decreases you have no idea what pricing will be in 2-3 years and you are "hedging" that most likely it will be much lower than what it is now.
HighPotential
Member
HighPotential
Member
And I paid $163K for my fully loaded Plaid and I was happy to pay it. I love the car. Not planning to sell it ever. First new car I ever bought.
Daytonaviolet
Member
Perfect
. Just need to add swivel and refresh tails.Attachments
In 2022, when the average cost of a MSP, unadorned by the FSD / Elmo tax, was a mere trifle at $119,990.
In 4 years which is 2026, you'd probably need to throw in a complimentary charging cable and a heartfelt plea to get someone to take it off your hands for $65,000, assuming it's still in showroom condition after clocking 30k miles. That's $54,990 alone in depreciation and $1145 per month. And yet, amidst this financial spectacle, there are still those 3/Y aficionados, comfortably perched in their more 'financially prudent' chariots, lecturing us about the finer points of MSP ownership.
To casually dismiss the nuanced dance of leasing versus owning without a smidgen of context is not just 'plain stupid'; it's a masterclass in the blissful ignorance. But then again, what do I know? Those guys with a M3/Y got all the answers!
In 4 years which is 2026, you'd probably need to throw in a complimentary charging cable and a heartfelt plea to get someone to take it off your hands for $65,000, assuming it's still in showroom condition after clocking 30k miles. That's $54,990 alone in depreciation and $1145 per month. And yet, amidst this financial spectacle, there are still those 3/Y aficionados, comfortably perched in their more 'financially prudent' chariots, lecturing us about the finer points of MSP ownership.
To casually dismiss the nuanced dance of leasing versus owning without a smidgen of context is not just 'plain stupid'; it's a masterclass in the blissful ignorance. But then again, what do I know? Those guys with a M3/Y got all the answers!
HighPotential
Member
Maybe true, but I don't lease- ever. I buy to own and daily drive for ten years or more. I can't think of a better car to do this in.
It seems like you got a good one. Thats fantastic. I always say the best auto warranty is the one you never need.
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