Electrify America general discussion

[Rocky_H]

It would be an incredibly boneheaded move if they didn’t implement some sort of continuity check. It should be trivial to detect if a cable is cut.

I suppose there is something I am missing, and being an electrical engineer, I am going to be embarrassed if this is something simple, but I can't picture how one would be able to do a continuity check to detect this at all, much less how it would be "trivial".

These are wires that go outward, and each one ends in a pin in the plug head. They are all just one way single wires. They are open circuit to anything else. You could continuity check it, but without anything plugged into the end, it would just read infinite resistance. If the cable gets cut off, they are still wires that are open ended and still don't connect to anything--just shorter. But that wouldn't change the reading of a continuity check.

 

[STS-134]

I suppose there is something I am missing, and being an electrical engineer, I am going to be embarrassed if this is something simple, but I can't picture how one would be able to do a continuity check to detect this at all, much less how it would be "trivial".

These are wires that go outward, and each one ends in a pin in the plug head. They are all just one way single wires. They are open circuit to anything else. You could continuity check it, but without anything plugged into the end, it would just read infinite resistance. If the cable gets cut off, they are still wires that are open ended and still don't connect to anything--just shorter. But that wouldn't change the reading of a continuity check.

Having logic that detects when one station has zero charging sessions while others are having sessions get activated is pretty simple to do. There's no excuse for stations to remain broken for weeks while neighboring stations are working. Hell, there was one station in Gilroy that EA had to know there was something wrong with, because if they checked their logs, they'd see that I tried to start a session 3 or 4 times and the attempt failed every time. And I wasn't the only one this was happening to because the guy in the stall next to me told me to try that stall as he was leaving, saying that he's "never had luck" with the station I was parked at. So it was down for that long. Seriously?

 

[MP3Mike]

These are wires that go outward, and each one ends in a pin in the plug head. They are all just one way single wires. They are open circuit to anything else. You could continuity check it, but without anything plugged into the end, it would just read infinite resistance. If the cable gets cut off, they are still wires that are open ended and still don't connect to anything--just shorter. But that wouldn't change the reading of a continuity check.

They aren't all like that. There is a button that the state is monitored on, I don't know if it is NC or NO. There is also the temperature sensor and there should be a latch position switch.

So they can monitor if the end of the cable is cut off of they want to.

 

[RTPEV]

I suppose there is something I am missing, and being an electrical engineer, I am going to be embarrassed if this is something simple, but I can't picture how one would be able to do a continuity check to detect this at all, much less how it would be "trivial".

These are wires that go outward, and each one ends in a pin in the plug head. They are all just one way single wires. They are open circuit to anything else. You could continuity check it, but without anything plugged into the end, it would just read infinite resistance. If the cable gets cut off, they are still wires that are open ended and still don't connect to anything--just shorter. But that wouldn't change the reading of a continuity check.

The "nozzle" does (or should) have wiring in it for "proximity" detection. Basically it forms a circuit with the ground pin that the remote end (technically the car, but all but the cheapest charging stations run the PP line back to the EVSE as well) can detect whether the latch release is being pressed. Here is a schematic which illustrates this:

Based on whether it is seeing 150Ω or 480Ω, across the PP/PE line, it can detect when the latch is depressed, and when it is, it's supposed to terminate charging immediately.

The EVSE can monitor this as well, and it should be able to detect if there is a break in the cable anywhere along the line because it would see a completely open circuit between PP and PE in that case.

 

[Exelion]

Electrify America can’t detect if a crackhead stolen the charging cables or the displays are sunburned.

They could if they had cameras installed at all their stations. I know-that would incur more expenses and people would have to then spend time watching videos.

So, it will be a very long time until (and that’s if) EA gets to where Tesla is now with charging infrastructure.

 

[avs007]

What are the start and end points of your road trip? Zip codes are fine if you're not comfortable with exact addresses.

Seattle to San Jose so far.

 

[avs007]

I just stopped at a mall in the bay area. 1 of the 4 was out of service. 2 were in use. And I couldn't get the last one to initiate. It kept saying cannot start session. I tried from phone and with credit card. There was an urban charger right next to it, so I went there. It just worked... The inner cheapskate in me didn't want to pay 60 cents, so I waited until one of EA guys left, and took their stall. This time I still couldn't initiate from app but from CC worked. So I lost out on 31 cents pass+, and had to pay 43 cents. But still cheaper than 60 cents.

I feel sorry for people that have to depend exclusively on CCS.

 

[RayK]

I suppose there is something I am missing, and being an electrical engineer, I am going to be embarrassed if this is something simple, but I can't picture how one would be able to do a continuity check to detect this at all, much less how it would be "trivial".

These are wires that go outward, and each one ends in a pin in the plug head. They are all just one way single wires. They are open circuit to anything else. You could continuity check it, but without anything plugged into the end, it would just read infinite resistance. If the cable gets cut off, they are still wires that are open ended and still don't connect to anything--just shorter. But that wouldn't change the reading of a continuity check.

I 'm assuming that the EVSE companies probably didn't think of vandalism to be a problem with their equipment, but a continuity check can be engineered in by including a simple loop of wire. A length of wire which goes all of the way out to the handle and then returns back to the stand. Once the cable is cut, no more continuity in that loop.

 

[Mockingbird]

Why not? Two ways this could be detected:

The hardware could (in theory anyway...it may or may not be implemented on each station) perform a continuity check all the way down to the connector and through the Proximity pin, so a cut cable or connector could be detected.

The second method would be a little less direct, but if a given station had ZERO usage over a given time period (while other stations at the same site are showing non-ZERO usage), then that is a good indication that there is probably an issue with that station.

Somehow, I doubt that the engineers who designed the charger thought that the charger needs to constantly run tests to see if someone stole the charging cables.

 

[STS-134]

Somehow, I doubt that the engineers who designed the charger thought that the charger needs to constantly run tests to see if someone stole the charging cables.

Well the check for zero sessions initiated successfully over multiple days can be done entirely in software. On the server side.

 

[RTPEV]

Somehow, I doubt that the engineers who designed the charger thought that the charger needs to constantly run tests to see if someone stole the charging cables.

Sure, but it should be continuously checking whether a car is plugged in or not, and getting one reading or another. A cut cable would indicate a third resistance value (technically open circuit), so this might already be detectable.

And even if that's not the case, it's technically possible, perhaps with only a software/firmware update.

Now whether that's the case or not, I don't know. Just pointing out that it is possible. And if they aren't thinking about that possibility now, well, I'm not sure those engineers should continue to work in that field.

 

[Big Earl]

Somehow, I doubt that the engineers who designed the charger thought that the charger needs to constantly run tests to see if someone stole the charging cables.

This illustrates an important difference between Tesla and charging networks who operate third-party equipment.

Tesla can just write the code and push it to their equipment over the air, possibly adding a feature like this in a single day for the cost of a few hours of a software engineer's time.

Other charging networks have many more layers of vendors, parts providers and software engineers to navigate before adding a feature like this. All of these steps likely involve paying - potentially multiple parties - to add whatever feature set is being requested. The whole process could take weeks or months and, if the equipment doesn't support that level of OTA updates, require a service technician to physically visit the site.

 

[avs007]

Have you contacted Electrify America to describe the issue that you were having, including specific information such as the charger numbers?

I tried, but it was an endless wait on hold. In fact just a few hours ago, I was on hold... I moved to a Tesla urban charger and was still on hold after 10 minutes, so I gave up. I didnt have time to sit around. I just coughed up the 60 cents kwh. I did manage to switch when someone from EA left. Only reason I gave another shot, was that I had an appt to make, and was only pulling 60kw from the urban charger.. when I finally got EA to work, I was pulling 122kw. Personally wasn't worth the hassle. Only reason I switched was because I kept getting texts asking where the hell I was, lol.

 

[terranx]

Somehow, I doubt that the engineers who designed the charger thought that the charger needs to constantly run tests to see if someone stole the charging cables.

A continuity check is not "constantly running tests". It's very common to simply have a normally closed switch present to indicate everything is okay. If wire is cut, switch is open, and then that means something is broken.

 

[Earl]

Somehow, I doubt that the engineers who designed the charger thought that the charger needs to constantly run tests to see if someone stole the charging cables.

I can remember discussions back in the 1990's about the risk of tweakers stealing the copper from charger cables. I guess, it depends on what caliber of engineers one hires.

 

[Earl]

The "nozzle" does (or should) have wiring in it for "proximity" detection. Basically it forms a circuit with the ground pin that the remote end (technically the car, but all but the cheapest charging stations run the PP line back to the EVSE as well) can detect whether the latch release is being pressed. Here is a schematic which illustrates this:

View attachment 845555

Based on whether it is seeing 150Ω or 480Ω, across the PP/PE line, it can detect when the latch is depressed, and when it is, it's supposed to terminate charging immediately.

The EVSE can monitor this as well, and it should be able to detect if there is a break in the cable anywhere along the line because it would see a completely open circuit between PP and PE in that case.

Another option would be to integrate a circuit tester for all 5 lines in the cradle where on puts the charging handle back after use. It would fail if someone neglects to return the charging handle but I'm surprised at how seldom I see this happen.

 

[TS.42]

I. HATE. EA.

Their chargers are mostly busted, there are no Tesla’s chargers near and their customer service sucks. I was nearly stranded several times by their inoperable charging stations. EA reboots them all the time and its super annoying.

 

[Jeff N]

The inner cheapskate in me didn't want to pay 60 cents, so I waited until one of EA guys left, and took their stall. This time I still couldn't initiate from app but from CC worked. So I lost out on 31 cents pass+, and had to pay 43 cents. But still cheaper than 60 cents.

Are you certain that your attempt to start through the app failed? I’ve have noticed several times that starting a charge from the EA app when using Tesla CCS actually starts charging but the app thinks it hasn’t and the dispenser is glacially slow to show the active charging screen. The clue is to ignore the app and dispenser screen and just listen for the cooling system in the dispenser to turn on and then check the screen in the car to see if it’s charging.

Today, I used an EA site. The first time I tried initiating it didn’t work so I unplugged and tried the same cable again. It worked the 2nd time although the app was confused as I described above. I initiated the charge both times by swiping on the app.

At least on Apple IOS on newish phones, the EA app also puts an NFC card in your Apple Wallet that you can use by putting your phone up against the NFC antenna icon on the charger. You might have to select the card in your Wallet app first. That way you can initiate the charge without swiping with your finger and starting the charge by going through the Internet. It’s like using your credit card except that EA will know it’s your account and will charge you the lower rate if you have the subscription pass.

I feel sorry for people that have to depend exclusively on CCS.

Yes, it’s all way more complicated than it should be.

 

[avs007]

Are you certain that your attempt to start through the app failed? I’ve have noticed several times that starting a charge from the EA app when using Tesla CCS actually starts charging but the app thinks it hasn’t and the dispenser is glacially slow to show the active charging screen.

Yes, positive. Cooling did not start, Tesla logo not green, etc. I've had like 30 successful sessions on EA, prior to this trip.. This trip definitely sucked on EA, haha.

 

[avs007]

I have never gotten NFC to work on EA. It would always select a credit card from my wallet. I heard there are two NFC readers on the chargers, but I have never gotten the little grey one to work.