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The problem is that Elon has gotten involved in politics!

I disagree. Elon has stated many times he does not want to choose sides in politics. He accepted an invitation to advise the president on manufacturing, and now stragic policy. He is doing so to try to make a positive difference, not to support Trump.

I don't think leaving the table to "send a message" would accomplish anything.
 
Policy is indeed partly a matter of public opinion, but evidence-based policy is defensible. So far, the executive orders haven't been surrounded by evidence. The immigrant ban is ordered as optics in spite of the evidence. The wall is the same. Much of his policy from the campaign trail is opposed to the evidence and data.

I just don't like saying that some people like this policy and some people like that policy. All presidents have done things that aren't supported by the data. So far, it seems like this one has little concern with the real data (climate change, vaccines, free trade) and more with gut. That bothers me.

Policy is completely a matter of opinion. Data basis for and results of policy are of course not matters of opinion, but even they can be either contested and/or only available in highsight. Even the best researched, most well-meaning policies can utterly fail in the real world, while a controversial gut reaction can win the day.

I'm not saying educated commentary can not be made on policy. Of course it can. But in such a biased and partisan world we live in now, where do we turn to for objective commentary. I don't know anyone objective on politics these days, so I listen to nobody, really, expect TMC of course! :)

kort677 said:
hmm where was your outrage when obambi implemented a very similar order?
Yeah, calling our past president "obambi" shows your lack of ideological bias. As does comparing the two remarkably different orders and calling them "similar." I'd love to hear your take on the similarities and the drive behind them. Which one was a reaction to evidence?

Where were you in the Trump Cheeto Jesus thread? ;)
 
Data basis for and results of policy are of course not matters of opinion, but even they can be either contested and/or only available in highsight. Even the best researched, most well-meaning policies can utterly fail in the real world, while a controversial gut reaction can win the day.

I have never rated a post dislike/disagree on TMC, and don't plan to start, but this one brought me as close as I've ever come. You suggest with these words that basing policy on the best available data is pointless because outcomes may not be as expected. That misses the point entirely and demonstrates a complete disregard for statistics and science. Using data to drive policy means better outcomes over time, despite the occasional gut instinct policy that would have been a better choice. It also means that you have a basis upon which to make future policy, and the ability to measure the effectiveness.

I hope you just poorly stated your position, because this kind of wishy-washiness that you seem to embrace is a point of view that weakens the entire fabric upon which human advances are built.
 
I have never rated a post dislike/disagree on TMC, and don't plan to start, but this one brought me as close as I've ever come. You suggest with these words that basing policy on the best available data is pointless because outcomes may not be as expected. That misses the point entirely and demonstrates a complete disregard for statistics and science. Using data to drive policy means better outcomes over time, despite the occasional gut instinct policy that would have been a better choice. It also means that you have a basis upon which to make future policy, and the ability to measure the effectiveness.

I hope you just poorly stated your position, because this kind of wishy-washiness that you seem to embrace is a point of view that weakens the entire fabric upon which human advances are built.

Partly you miss my point. Partly I was wishy-washy intentionally.

I'll address the latter first: I have no desire to engage in policy debate on TMC beyond EVs and other topics relevant to this forum. (And it is my understanding such debate would not be welcome here anyway.) I was thus describing how I view policies, politics etc. in general, not discussing particular policies or politics. So I was intentionally not weighing the different options or outcomes, I was not suggesting them equal, I was making no commentary on their merits or lack thereof, just listing the various points of view and scenarios that can be relevant when trying to understand the big picture of a topic like this.

The part you missed in my point is: in the current climate even data is partisan. I am completely sincere about that view and that is a particular political opinion I am willing to discuss here, because I feel it applies to the EV as well as Elon Musk topics as well. So much of the studies, schools of higher learning, sources of funding, those who engage in the studying and those who report on it are... partisan. And that is why it is so hard to know when facts are facts. It is very hard to find impartially reported data, because the data gets filtered through various partisan lenses that affect the hypothesis and cause self-censoring in the reporting.

Ask yourself sincerely, just as a mental exercise: What if data did show that a temporary ban from certain countries works. Would such a study ever get a fair hearing or would it (and the people behind) be run over by opposition? For ideological reasons, the opposition towards such data would be immense.

Facts are not partisan. But getting to those facts is hard, because there is so much partisan noise between us and the facts - on all sides of the aisle. I genuinely feel it is hard to trust anyone. So, much of the time, I don't. I try to learn widely and make up my own mind. Be it Eds or Clinton or Elon or Trump.

What is does result in for myself, quite often, is avoidance of extreme like or dislike towards anyone or anyone's point of view. I notice myself living constantly in a much more shades of grey world than it seems many others do. Even people whom I respect greatly and whom I consider very intelligent can seen almost blindly fanatical to me on some issues, even though to me it all looks like a spectrum so obviously.

Or maybe I'm just crazy.
 
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Partly I was wishy-washy intentionally.
Yeah, I've been around these parts for a while. I'm aware.

I was thus describing how I view policies, politics etc. in general, not discussing particular policies or politics. So I was intentionally not weighing the different options or outcomes, I was not suggesting them equal, I was making no commentary on their merits or lack thereof, just listing the various points of view and scenarios that can be relevant when trying to understand the big picture of a topic like this.
So you were adding white noise? Reading the above makes me wonder why even comment if you have no commentary.

The part you missed in my point is: in the current climate even data is partisan. I am completely sincere about that view and that is a particular political opinion I am willing to discuss here, because I feel it applies to the EV as well as Elon Musk topics as well. So much of the studies, schools of higher learning, sources of funding, those who engage in the studying and those who report on it are... partisan. And that is why it is so hard to know when facts are facts. It is very hard to find impartially reported data, because the data gets filtered through various partisan lenses that affect the hypothesis and cause self-censoring in the reporting.
The data are not partisan. The interpretation or analysis of that data may be. The raw source of much of the data are available online, and if you think someone's tweaking those numbers, I'll have to label you a conspiracy theorist. The analysis may suffer from a type of scientific bias, a fit-the-curve mentality that doesn't reflect the important concept of the "view from nowhere". Much of this bias shows up in unreproducible studies where correlations are found even though they weren't the basis for the research. It's vastly less common with continuous, rich data sets like we have with climate. But it certainly happens, and it's almost always intensified by media coverage.

However, if a study provides the data set, their methodology, and their results, how is it hard to know when facts are facts? Allowing peers to review published materials, and having opponents try to disassemble the results - this is our method. Putting such a question on this methodology implies to me that you might as well take homeopathic remedies and make your computer out of sticks and rocks that you find strewn around. We've made it this far because of this process.

Ask yourself sincerely, just as a mental exercise: What if data did show that a temporary ban from certain countries works. Would such a study ever get a fair hearing or would it (and the people behind) be run over by opposition? For ideological reasons, the opposition towards such data would be immense.
I think it would get a fair hearing, and I say that honestly. Whether it should be interpreted into policy would be a much more difficult conversation.
 
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Yeah, I've been around these parts for a while. I'm aware.

Now, that's uncalled for. I was wishy-washy intentionally in a political discussion on a forum that does not allow political discussion. I thought the distinction was fair and clear. Apparently not.

So you were adding white noise? Reading the above makes me wonder why even comment if you have no commentary.

No. I was making commentary about political discourse in general, just not about policies in particular. I thought it had value in itself. Apparently you think differently.

The data are not partisan. The interpretation or analysis of that data may be.

Oh, data can certainly be partisan. Note: I did not say facts are partisan. They are not. But data most definitely can be partisan.

The raw source of much of the data are available online, and if you think someone's tweaking those numbers, I'll have to label you a conspiracy theorist.

I'm no such thing. All it takes for data to be biased is a biased hypothesis, biased thinking or funding leading to that hypothesis and the subsequent bias in method. It is practically impossible to even get funding for certain types of hypothesis or studies. Not to mention the immense amount of subjective work that goes into summarizing, editorializing and publicizing that data - even in its scientific, white-paper form, let alone beyond that.

The analysis may suffer from a type of scientific bias, a fit-the-curve mentality that doesn't reflect the important concept of the "view from nowhere". Much of this bias shows up in unreproducible studies where correlations are found even though they weren't the basis for the research. It's vastly less common with continuous, rich data sets like we have with climate. But it certainly happens, and it's almost always intensified by media coverage.

Look. There are obviously harder and softer sciences - and those can suffer from bias more or less because of that. It is harder to apply bias into e.g. the research of gravity. Much easier in social sciences for example.

However, if a study provides the data set, their methodology, and their results, how is it hard to know when facts are facts? Allowing peers to review published materials, and having opponents try to disassemble the results - this is our method. Putting such a question on this methodology implies to me that you might as well take homeopathic remedies and make your computer out of sticks and rocks that you find strewn around. We've made it this far because of this process.

Of course this is our method, I am a university educated person just like I assume you are. But I am not putting a question on this methodology, I am having an opinion about the weakness of the methodology: as it stands, it is not immune to partisan bias. Nothing is, so I am not suggesting replacing sciences with pseudosciences. I am suggesting - well, not so much suggesting than just saying this is how I roll - healthy scepticism when considering all sources, including scientific sources. (Let alone how selectively those scientific sources are used by the media and partisan players.)

AnxietyRanger said:
Ask yourself sincerely, just as a mental exercise: What if data did show that a temporary ban from certain countries works. Would such a study ever get a fair hearing or would it (and the people behind) be run over by opposition? For ideological reasons, the opposition towards such data would be immense.

I think it would get a fair hearing, and I say that honestly. Whether it should be interpreted into policy would be a much more difficult conversation.

You, sir, are an optimist. :) I have seen too many cases where "facts" have been adjusted to fit ideology - again on all sides of the fence.
 
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mess? ha, the only mess is that there is clear thinking in place now, care to talk about merkel's immigration mess in your country?

exactly how are US gun laws more dangerous than the many violent acts of the recent immigrant invasion of germany?
Germany is in a dangerous state of denial about immigration, Islam and terrorism
Army of child migrants who turn to crime and CAN'T be deported - is UK next?

And what immigration mess is this that you are talking about?
Ever been to Germany in recent times instead of just quoting heavily-biased UK-based newspaper comments?

Every one of your latest comments shows just how little you actually know and how much you think you know. As Lesifass said, we have gained roughly a million new inhabitants, and from what I see and gather from personal experience every day, the vast majority of them is decent, friendly, intelligent people. If I would plan a social gathering, I would much rather invite any one of them instead of you!

And "clear thinking"? Right, that I think sums it up perfectly. *rolleyes*
But please excuse me now, I must do some clear thinking of my own to come up with some more "alternative facts"...
 
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And what immigration mess is this that you are talking about?
Ever been to Germany in recent times instead of just quoting heavily-biased UK-based newspaper comments?

Every one of your latest comments shows just how little you actually know and how much you think you know. As Lesifass said, we have gained roughly a million new inhabitants, and from what I see and gather from personal experience every day, the vast majority of them is decent, friendly, intelligent people. If I would plan a social gathering, I would much rather invite any one of them instead of you!
I went to Munich for Oktoberfest last year and found it to be a great city with a wonderful and diverse population. The wiesn was quite enjoyable as well. ;)
 
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I tend to avoid the type of people who speak in moronic terms like the ones you use.

I tend to avoid people who can't get past their own self indulged attitude. Don't like the moniker? Fine. Insulting me because of it? Not fine.

Calling the moniker "Cheeto Jesus" moronic is laughable. Jealous you didn't think of it first? Hell I stole it myself... I'll tell you what's moronic, people getting caught up by the moniker and not taking a moment to appreciate the broader point.

Jeff
 
Elon Musk has been present at what--one or two meetings with Trump and a bunch of other people? (I'm honestly not all that up on this.)

It seems to me that Musk is smart enough to know what he is doing. If, after a few more meetings, it becomes clear to him that he is not accomplishing anything, and that his presence is somehow helping Trump, but nothing else, I would expect Mr. Musk will resign from the committee. I think we should wait at least a little while to see how this plays out before passing judgement.
I tend to avoid people who can't get past their own self indulged attitude. Don't like the moniker? Fine. Insulting me because of it? Not fine.

Calling the moniker "Cheeto Jesus" moronic is laughable. Jealous you didn't think of it first? Hell I stole it myself... I'll tell you what's moronic, people getting caught up by the moniker and not taking a moment to appreciate the broader point.

Jeff
for your info, that moniker, as you call it, is offensive to a large basically non political group that respect the name Jesus.
 
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I disagree. Elon has stated many times he does not want to choose sides in politics. He accepted an invitation to advise the president on manufacturing, and now stragic policy. He is doing so to try to make a positive difference, not to support Trump.

I don't think leaving the table to "send a message" would accomplish anything.

Now that´s a freudian slip - deep in your mind you know it´s more tragic than strategic, right ;) ?!

IMHO, while Elon is losing credibility for getting to close to Trump (as someone noted on twitter), it is worse that by his presence in Trumps inner circle Elon is giving his credibility to that guy. I do think leaving the table would accomplish a lot. Don´t feed the narcissist.
 
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Now that´s a freudian slip - deep in your mind you know it´s more tragic than strategic, right ;) ?!

IMHO, while Elon is losing credibility for getting to close to Trump (as someone noted on twitter), it is worse that by his presence in Trumps inner circle Elon is giving his credibility to that guy. I do think leaving the table would accomplish a lot. Don´t feed the narcissist.

So you suggest that the US Federal Government should not work with the transportation industry like Germany and Japan does?

And that the transportation industry leaders like Elon Musk should not work with the government like industry leaders in Germany and Japan do?

Can you please explain why?

Is it because the year is 2017 and not 2009? Or is there another reason?
 
I tend to avoid people who can't get past their own self indulged attitude. Don't like the moniker? Fine. Insulting me because of it? Not fine.

Calling the moniker "Cheeto Jesus" moronic is laughable. Jealous you didn't think of it first? Hell I stole it myself... I'll tell you what's moronic, people getting caught up by the moniker and not taking a moment to appreciate the broader point.

Jeff

I would argue "Cheeto Jesus" is equally offensive, if you felt offended by "moron". Cheeto Jesus is not only offensive to Trump, but also to people who voted for him, those who have religious sensibilities regarding Jesus and, I guess some would say, offensive to Cheetos. :)

Seriously, name calling helps nothing. Let's just talk the topics.
 
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