Elon Musk

[hitchhiker]

The problem being talked about here isn't just about Musk -- in fact he's sort of a minor player in the problem. He's only targeted because he's the current tall-weed-syndrome target of all such things, being the individual with the highest net worth. Its a strategy that's been used by very rich people for a while, including Bezos and numerous bankers. You never sell your stock -- you just borrow against it. Therefore you never make an income and can't be taxed since there is no income to tax. Then when you die, your heirs get a step-up valuation on the stock so that they dont' have to pay the tax on the value increase of the stock either.

Maybe the solution is to prohibit borrowing against stocks? But people do the same thing with real estate -- you just re-fi your property and live off that money tax free too (since you never sell your property). I think the solution is not simple. Maybe it involves some sort of property tax on securities? That would be hard to push in the US, since we've never had it and it would severely change the equation on investment and capital for just about everyone.

That said -- I'm not sure its fair to target Musk about this. I doubt he has any loans against his stock. He may have done that years ago, but when he started selling his houses a few years ago he made enough money off those sales to live off of. And now he's got billions from the stock he sold last year. I suspect he doesn't actually use this 'loophole' people are talking about.

 

[Barklikeadog]

The problem being talked about here isn't just about Musk -- in fact he's sort of a minor player in the problem. He's only targeted because he's the current tall-weed-syndrome target of all such things, being the individual with the highest net worth. Its a strategy that's been used by very rich people for a while, including Bezos and numerous bankers. You never sell your stock -- you just borrow against it. Therefore you never make an income and can't be taxed since there is no income to tax. Then when you die, your heirs get a step-up valuation on the stock so that they dont' have to pay the tax on the value increase of the stock either.

Maybe the solution is to prohibit borrowing against stocks? But people do the same thing with real estate -- you just re-fi your property and live off that money tax free too (since you never sell your property). I think the solution is not simple. Maybe it involves some sort of property tax on securities? That would be hard to push in the US, since we've never had it and it would severely change the equation on investment and capital for just about everyone.

That said -- I'm not sure its fair to target Musk about this. I doubt he has any loans against his stock. He may have done that years ago, but when he started selling his houses a few years ago he made enough money off those sales to live off of. And now he's got billions from the stock he sold last year. I suspect he doesn't actually use this 'loophole' people are talking about.

I believe Elon was taking out loans, using his current stock as collateral, to buy more stock.
There was a point a few years ago where people talked of a margin call on him.

 

[mongo]

You never sell your stock -- you just borrow against it. Therefore you never make an income and can't be taxed since there is no income to tax. Then when you die, your heirs get a step-up valuation on the stock so that they dont' have to pay the tax on the value increase of the stock either.

The loan needs to be repaid at some point. Either by stock sales or other income generated (and taxed).

Also, estate taxes are due on gains upon death:
How Much Tax Does Elon Musk Have to Pay? 52.65% When Exercising Stock Options, 40% Estate Tax Upon Death

In the case of stock, the estate pays tax (40% + any state on amounts over 11ish million) on the appreciation and the inheritor starts with basis=value and it gets treated as long term to them.

The Estate Tax on Stocks and Dividends

 

[Archduke]

Today, Elon Musk tweeted a meme that was a photo of Hitler. Above him, it read, "Stop comparing me to Justin Trudeau". Beneath him, it read, "I had a budget". I can reach no conclusion except that he is an absolute a**hole. His anti-vax tweets and flirtations with conspiracies annoy me. But this is beyond the pale. I am currently driving my second Model S Performance Ludicrous. When the lease is up for this car, I will find another electric vehicle. I cannot stomach this jerk making another dollar off of me (and, yes, yes...I know. He has so many billions, he will never miss me...it's the principle). I'm done with Elon which means I'm done with Tesla.

 

[Barklikeadog]

I hear a lot of people specifically went there to join in and rabble rouse. On the news one guy was calling it a civil war between them and the government, although that is not how that term is used, and governments are specifically designed for redress of legitimate concerns. "Vote the bastards out" I believe is the strategy.

You heard? Well if a guy on the internet heard something, must be true. JFHG, I know that you are on site, but randy heard something. You should internet apologize to randy

 

[Bikeman]

Following Elon's Hitler tweet today, I am seriously reconsidering my next vehicle purchase. Elon has become unhinged, as if he wasn't before. How a B.O.D. can still keep him as part of the company (with or without a title) is beyond me. Do they not care? Stock down again today, probably because of the that tweet (selloffs?). How long can this guy keep affecting the company this way without some serious sanctions? Perhaps Twitter can do something about it too. Dang past time he gets some counseling or an intervention.

 

[FlatSix911]

Following Elon's Hitler tweet today, I am seriously reconsidering my next vehicle purchase. Elon has become unhinged, as if he wasn't before. How a B.O.D. can still keep him as part of the company (with or without a title) is beyond me. Do they not care? Stock down again today, probably because of the that tweet (selloffs?). How long can this guy keep affecting the company this way without some serious sanctions? Perhaps Twitter can do something about it too. Dang past time he gets some counseling or an intervention.

Yea, that will fix your problem... more government intervention. A Twitter timeout too!

Elon Musk says the SEC is gunning for his free speech rights

Elon Musk is convinced that the Securities Exchange Commission is gunning for him and his free speech rights because he's a frequent critic of the government.

www.cnn.com

 

[rcp1]

Honestly, with his tweet today, I feel embarrassed that I have a MY on order… Wish competitors had better options.

 

[gforce2002]

Today was disgusting, but unfortunately in retrospect not that surprising. I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt for some time, even though the toxic fandom that surrounds this company has been a constant put-off. But this tweet pretty much sealed it that when a person shows you who they are, you should believe them. I feel all this is coming to a head, where Tesla is really going to have to decide if they're actually a serious, mainstream company or a flash in the pan derailed by an increasingly erratic leader. I've had a Model 3 for less than a year, but I'm kind of embarrassed to be seen in it now.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Oh gawd, the outrage mob. Elon deleted the tweet. Yep, comparing anyone to Hitler is both verboten and frankly, dumb. We all make mistakes, be thankful no one cares about yours.

 

[wdolson]

Musk is a talented and hardworking engineer and manager with real vision who has done a lot to making practical electric motoring a reality. At the same time, he is increasingly unstable and misguided in both his corporate and operational decision-making and his publicly-expressed personal views. So many recent Tesla decisions made at his initiative, or apparently with his approval, are bone-headed. As much as Musk has done to get the EV project this far, I think that Tesla might be better off continuing on without him.

The person to take a start up to stable company is not always the person to be at the helm during the stable period. I think it's time for Elon to step aside as CEO. Maybe he can hold some sort of post as chief visionary or something, but it's time somebody who is more a logistics person ran the company day to day.

 

[Mr X]

Today was disgusting, but unfortunately in retrospect not that surprising. I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt for some time, even though the toxic fandom that surrounds this company has been a constant put-off. But this tweet pretty much sealed it that when a person shows you who they are, you should believe them. I feel all this is coming to a head, where Tesla is really going to have to decide if they're actually a serious, mainstream company or a flash in the pan derailed by an increasingly erratic leader. I've had a Model 3 for less than a year, but I'm kind of embarrassed to be seen in it now.

Are you serious? Lol

 

[jabloomf1230]

Yea, that will fix your problem... more government intervention. A Twitter timeout too!

Elon Musk says the SEC is gunning for his free speech rights

Elon Musk is convinced that the Securities Exchange Commission is gunning for him and his free speech rights because he's a frequent critic of the government.

www.cnn.com

The "Hitler" comment reminded me when I was a young prat and bought a used BMW 2002tii. One of my uncles pulled me aside at a family gathering and gave me an ear full. "I fought in WW2 and VW, BMW and Mercedes financed Hitler. How could you buy a BMW?"

 

[Dave EV]

Oh gawd, the outrage mob. Elon deleted the tweet. Yep, comparing anyone to Hitler is both verboten and frankly, dumb. We all make mistakes, be thankful no one cares about yours.

The CEO of a ~1 trillion dollar company should not be making mistakes like this. Mistakes like this do the ~100,000 employees (and that's just Tesla) a huge disservice along with all other stakeholders.

Tesla is overdue to find someone else to be the face of the company - or just let the company's products and services speak for themselves.

The right thing to do here is to own up to the mistake, apologize and take corrective action.

 

[Dave EV]

Are you serious? Lol

So you think it's ok to joke about the Holocaust?

 

[Daniel in SD]

I think it's obvious that Elon is both a troll and that he does this to appeal to people whose primary political agenda is triggering the libs. The right wing EV market is very underserved.

I look forward to him taking a principled stand and refusing to show proof of vaccination when traveling internationally.

 

[spacerfc]

When Elon smoked pot on Rogen's show the US government considered dropping SpaceX as a contractor. They didn't in the end, but it almost lost them a lot of business. It may not be fair, but public figures are held to a different standard than the rest of us.

This is false, there's zero indication that US gov considered dropping SpaceX as a contractor, that's absurd to even consider. What NASA actually did is to order (and paid for) a safety review of SpaceX, which of course didn't find anything, but it's a good move anyways since SpaceX ends up launching crew first, always good to have an external review before doing something consequential like launching astronauts. Oh, and Boeing was forced to do the same review after Starliner failed in its first launch. So that's about the full impact of Elon smoking pot on Rogen's show.

 

[spacerfc]

So you think it's ok to joke about the Holocaust?

The meme is not linked to Holocaust in any way, people can talk about (and compare others to) Hitler without taking any stand about Holocaust.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

It was just a stupid meme. Seems like a weird thing to get so bent out of shape about. I don't get it. Can someone explain what was so horrible about it? I agree he shouldn't tweet controversial stuff just because people are so sensitive, but to me you guys are freaking out about nothing.

 

[Canyonero]

Just saw the Hitler thing, and also considering selling my shares and my MYP. But I also think that nothing is more important than transitioning away from fossil fuels, and that Tesla and Musk are at the forefront of that change. So I do want Tesla to continue to succeed, but would love to see Elon go away. But then, I think his appeal to people whose views are opposite to mine in almost every way is necessary to get them to start going EV. So, yeah… this is tough.

I really wish the man trying to save the world wasn’t such a douche.