FD Beta : TomTom Map, Roundabouts and the Speedlimit

[EVNow]

@EVNow maybe you can ask Elon in a tweet how maps can be corrected.

Yes - I'm going to seriously look at how to draft a tweet that would get automatically posted when Elon tweets. It would have to be pretty quick after the tweet to get his attention - as there are thousands of replies to all his tweets. I believe there are tools that can do it.

I can also try to get someone regular like that Mars guy to tweet or find out that info as well.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Has anyone checked speed limits in Tom Tom Mapshare for nearby roundabouts? I just did and discovered two things. First, Tom Tom does not map roundabout nodes consistently. Sometimes, the segment from one road passes through the roundabout uninterrupted. In other cases the segments within the circle are separate from the adjacent roads.

In any case, the Tom Tom roundabout speed limit is always the same as the adjacent road, often as high as 45 mph. I went through and changed the distinct roundabout segments to 15 mph, which is generally the posted speed limit.

Since my experience is that FSD beta treats roundabouts as a curvey road with intersections, I'm curious to see if and when these map changes take effect, whether roundabout behavior will change. Right now it's unpredictable and dangerous except for small single lane roundabouts with no traffic.

 

[EVNow]

In any case, the Tom Tom roundabout speed limit is always the same as the adjacent road, often as high as 45 mph. I went through and changed the distinct roundabout segments to 15 mph, which is generally the posted speed limit.

With the roundabouts near me - the problem is the car goes extremely slowly. So, haven't really checked the speed limits.

 

[EVNow]

I found an interesting area near me. Its an area that is quite different in Google and OSM and TomTom (and even Bing is slightly different from TomTom).

There are some new neighborhoods coming up there - and the main road has a number of new roundabouts. OSM & TomTom/Bing show no roundabouts but Google shows a couple. There are multiple roads near by with differences between OSM and TomTom. From the drive today it was clear Tesla was using TomTom map - but will make a few more runs to make sure I can definitely say whether OSM, TomTom or Bing is used.

Left - OSM Cycle, Center Google, Right TomTom.

View attachment 733765


ps : I've a TON of corrections to submit to TomTom

Finally TomTom made the changes I had requested. The changes are yet to flow to Bing. I've not made any changes in OSM yet.

BTW, does anyone know what is the difference between roads in dotted outline and regular roads in TomTom ?

Below : OSM, Google & TomTom

Old map :

 

[scottf200]

BTW, does anyone know what is the difference between roads in dotted outline and regular roads in TomTom ?

I did some searches but didn't have any luck finding a key/legend/etc for road types.
There are some numbers associated with 'Functional Road Classes (FRC)' ... it may be one of those types: What are Functional Road Classes (FRC)?

Also stumbled across this 2019 page which may have some high-level interest for how TomTom gets updates.
Behind the map: how we keep our maps up to date -- Behind the map: how we keep our maps up to date | TomTom Blog

 

[Dutchy Ron]

Finally TomTom made the changes I had requested. The changes are yet to flow to Bing. I've not made any changes in OSM yet.

BTW, does anyone know what is the difference between roads in dotted outline and regular roads in TomTom ?

Below : OSM, Google & TomTom

View attachment 738188


Old map :

Dotted roads are restricted for a bus, truck or something else I think

 

[EVNow]

Also stumbled across this 2019 page which may have some high-level interest for how TomTom gets updates.
Behind the map: how we keep our maps up to date -- Behind the map: how we keep our maps up to date | TomTom Blog

Interesting ...

With 61 billion GPS data points collected each day, it is the hyper precision of TomTom data that enables us to create maps detailed enough that they can even be used to power safe autonomous driving.​

 

[Dutchy Ron]

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The Increasing Importance of In-vehicle Experiences | TomTom Blog

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www.tomtom.com

 

[Mardak]

2 separate lanes with a median

I've noticed odd FSD Beta lane selection issues related to how medians show up in map data. At least for OSM, one can specify a 2-way road as a single line with a forward and backward or two distinct lines as if 2 separate 1-way roads. Some map data do the 2 lines even if there isn't actually a median/island and even more tricky is intermittent medians. Here's an example where all 4 maps here agree on 228th (North/South) being split to 2 lines but the diagonal road has different 1 vs 2 line sections:

HERE has a single line for Issaquah-Pine Lake at this zoom level vs TomTom starts the 2 lines at the cursor/Chase Bank vs Google has it 2 lines all the way to 228th vs OSM has 2 lines starting at 230th traffic light. In reality (at least based on Google Satellite view), there's 2 short medians that split up the center turn lane, so TomTom might be the most accurate but still not quite right as the median doesn't actually extend to 230th.

In terms of FSD Beta driving behavior, I've noticed that if you're in the right-most lane and upcoming map lanes data is inconsistent, the behavior will be an unnecessary switch to the left lane "to follow route."

 

[EVNow]

HERE has a single line for Issaquah-Pine Lake at this zoom level vs TomTom starts the 2 lines at the cursor/Chase Bank vs Google has it 2 lines all the way to 228th vs OSM has 2 lines starting at 230th traffic light. In reality (at least based on Google Satellite view), there's 2 short medians that split up the center turn lane, so TomTom might be the most accurate but still not quite right as the median doesn't actually extend to 230th.

Looks like there may have been recent changes to create a left turn only lane to 230th from Issaquah-Pine and some other turn lanes on that road. I will report to TomTom.

BTW, everytime there is a crosswalk before the round-about, the car stops at the cross-walk instead of entrance of roundabout. I have to intervene here every time.

 

[Itsuo-DC]

This is very important to figure out so we can submit meaningful changes and improve routing and overall driver experience. I have used the TomTom Go app for years for most of my medium to long trips. I find it’s more likely to find a reroute for traffic that I always assume saves me time. There is certainly a delta between the systems on reading traffic but I’ve not really paid attention to how roads appear between the two of them. I will pay closer attention in the future. If you want to compare side by side I think you can use the App without paying for the traffic service and then you can just run them in parallel for routing. It also does waypoints.

 

[scottf200]

This is very important to figure out so we can submit meaningful changes and improve routing and overall driver experience. I have used the TomTom Go app ... If you want to compare side by side I think you can use the App without paying for the traffic service and then you can just run them in parallel for routing. It also does waypoints.

FYI the subscription are on that page as well as the desc text at the G app store indicate it is only a 30 day free trial: TomTom GO Navigation - Apps on Google Play
Subscription Plans
Download our GO Navigation App and get a 30-day FREE trial.
*Credit card not required.
Monthly Plan - 1 month for 4.99. Billed monthly, cancel anytime.
Yearly Plan - 12 months for 24.99. Billed yearly, cancel anytime.
Family Plan - 12 months for 34.99. Share with up to 6 family members.

 

[Itsuo-DC]

FYI the subscription are on that page as well as the desc text at the G app store indicate it is only a 30 day free trial: TomTom GO Navigation - Apps on Google Play
Subscription Plans
Download our GO Navigation App and get a 30-day FREE trial.
*Credit card not required.
Monthly Plan - 1 month for 4.99. Billed monthly, cancel anytime.
Yearly Plan - 12 months for 24.99. Billed yearly, cancel anytime.
Family Plan - 12 months for 34.99. Share with up to 6 family members.

Correct, I pay for the service.

 

[Z_Lynx]

Do any of the navigation maps include turn lanes and turn/merge lanes?

I have an intersection where my side (I am heading west) consists of a left turn and two through lanes. On the opposing side are two through lanes with a right merge lane from the intersecting street.

The car consistently aims for the right merge lane.

If the turn and merge lanes are missing on the maps, is this causing the failure to use the through lane?

For what it's worth:
Openstreetmap (see lower right intersection):

Mydrive tomtom map (see lower right intersection):

Google maps (see lower right intersection):

GOOGLE MAPS satellite view shows the turn lane on my side (cars with red dots) and the merge lane from the intersecting road on the other side of the intersection.

Intersecting road, right turn onto merge lane, three cars with blue dots. The merge lane truncates.

This is what my car ALWAYS does (heads for the merge lane to the right) at 45 mph. ALWAYS fails to use the through lane, where it should be.

 

[EVNow]

@Z_Lynx If you zoom in on TomTom, you can see lane details, I’ll check tomorrow.

Not sure merge lanes are shown, though.

 

[Mardak]

Do any of the navigation maps include turn lanes and turn/merge lanes?

OpenStreetMap has that data readily available (and editable), but it can be wrong. In this case for Richmond Road, it's incorrectly tagged with lanes=2. When it switches to Long Street, there's actually 4 lanes, but it's still incorrectly tagged with 2 lanes as well as no turn lane data. Nearby though for some parts of McIntire Road, it correctly has lanes=3 and turn:lanes=left|none|merge_to_left. Unclear if this wrong data in OSM leads to poor FSD Beta behaviors.

You can use the "Query features" icon (the mouse pointer with "?") then click on an area containing part of the road to investigate.

 

[Z_Lynx]

@Z_Lynx If you zoom in on TomTom, you can see lane details, I’ll check tomorrow.

It appears that without an account, all I have is the mydrive maps which lack data at a more detailed level. I wish they accepted valid data without having an account.

Mardak, I haven't yet sorted out how to use all of OpenStreetMap's features, but exploring, definitely see issues. Also, using an overlay of maps for a rural intersection I must use, I see why FSD may be trying to turning so erratically. One map overlay shows a nice slanty intersection (true representation), the map they seem to be using overshoots the actual slanty turnoff as I approach from the north east and goes for a tree stump at the side of the road.

By the way, the "improvement" the powers that be may be seeing (fewer forced disengagements, etc.) may be partly due to users becoming familiar with failure points and avoiding using FSD on them. For me, riding the center line is a failure point. When the center line is crosshatched, you can hear and feel it. These repeating failures are disconcerting on winding roads and should not happen, whether there is oncoming traffic or no.

 

[EVNow]

It appears that without an account, all I have is the mydrive maps which lack data at a more detailed level. I wish they accepted valid data without having an account.

You can just create a free account.

Unfortunately even the most zoomed in view doesn't show the lane information. So, not sure what the lane information is. You can submit a correction for "shape of the road" and note that it should show a merging lane.

Mapshare

 

[Mardak]

Hah. No wonder FSD Beta has been missing this left turn:

The blue navigation line matches up with incorrect Bing Map data while OSM/Google Map/TomTom all position the road correctly ~20 feet North. I wonder if Tesla's navigation data also doesn't know about the parking aisle that FSD Beta wants to turn into where that missing parking lot data could have provided a hint to FSD Beta to ignore the first intersection.

 

[Dutchy Ron]

Hah. No wonder FSD Beta has been missing this left turn:
View attachment 757954

The blue navigation line matches up with incorrect Bing Map data while OSM/Google Map/TomTom all position the road correctly ~20 feet North. I wonder if Tesla's navigation data also doesn't know about the parking aisle that FSD Beta wants to turn into where that missing parking lot data could have provided a hint to FSD Beta to ignore the first intersection.

MSFT Bing is using only TomTom data and Maps.

Bing Maps is changing its base map data provider - Geoawesomeness

Microsoft’s mapping service Bing Maps has announced a change in its base map data source. The Bing Maps Platform, which is typically powered by multiple data providers, will now get its base map data from TomTom for all the regions across the world save China, Japan, and South Korea. This switch...

geoawesomeness.com