powertoold
Active Member
seems like you need to read the sae definitions a little closer. Once you understand them, you would think they are meaningless just like I do.
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FSD rewrite will go out on Oct 20 to limited beta
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seems like you need to read the sae definitions a little closer. Once you understand them, you would think they are meaningless just like I do.
Now that they have done some code merging I wouldn't be surprised to see the new visualization released to a much larger group of FSD software owners but without the actual FSD Beta software for driving " city roads".
That would be a good move by Tesla by year end. They would then gradually release FSD beta to more owners.
That would be a good move by Tesla by year end. They would then gradually release FSD beta to more owners.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
You might wanna take your own advice since my description was entirely accurate and your....guessing what's in them I supppose? is not.
yerEVan
Active Member
Well, if the dog has some super flatulence then you may catch some air.
DanCar
Active Member
So it is level 5 just like Elon said (because level are assigned by mfg and not measured) and all of you buffoons who thought Tesla wouldn't reach level 5, like me, are just wrong. haha Who knew Tesla has been level 5 since 2016?SAE Doc said:
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powertoold
Active Member
With my earlier post, I'm not saying that Tesla will have achieved level 5 with the FSD beta wide release. With the FSD beta wide release, they've essentially achieved it "in my eyes." Since I don't really care for the sae levels anyway, the fsd beta has essentially all the features needed for level 5, and once it's widely released, Tesla will have deemed it reliable enough for the average Joe to use.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Uh... no.
Tesla has never stated the released system is intended for unmanned use.
In fact they explicitly say the opposite of that a bunch of places in the manual, the actual sales page for the option, and directly on the screen every time you turn the system on.
You're misunderstanding the use of the word "intent" there. Badly.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
...except you're missing the most fundamental difference between an L2 system (what they've actually released- including the FSD beta) and an L5 system.
One actively requires a human to be paying attention and supervising the driving task 100% of the time.
The one that is L5 never requires a human to even be in the car at any time.
DanCar
Active Member
Many times Elon and Tesla have.
Autopilot
Tesla said:
Yes, that is about current operation, not about future intent.
Admit it. First you said SAE levels have nothing to do with intent. I quote the manual where intent has everything to do with level and you completely fail to admit you are completely and absolutely wrong over and over again.
powertoold
Active Member
I know what you mean. I'm trying to make two different points:
1) the sae levels are meaningless to gauge progress, and they're stupid to me
2) the fsd beta has essentially all the features needed for level 5. This has been surprising for all of us. Many of us were thinking that Tesla would only release FSD in small bits and pieces. Once they release the FSD beta widely, it will show that Tesla is confident in the features and to me, that is essentially level 5 (or the best fsd feature set for a consumer release). Since I don't have many other options than to use sae levels for dramatic effect, I'll say level 5.
The wide release will optimistically be in 5-8 months.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
He absolutely has not said the current released system is for unmanned use.
Your claim is grossly, factually, untrue.
"future" intent doesn't even make sense in this context. You keep misunderstanding the SAE standard and adding words that don't exist in it.
The system sold today is not intended for unmanned use
Despite your just claiming otherwise 10 seconds ago.
Here it is in writing in case you're still unclear you're wrong about it.
Nothing to do with the FUTURE intent of things it does not currently do
Because it doesn't.
That seems obvious to everyone other than you here.
This, again, is grossly and factually wrong.
Your ignored 95% of their requirements and definition, then added words to the 5% you liked that aren't there.
SAE lists a bunch of things that are required functionality for L5.
Then states they don't test it personally or anything- they go by the stated intent of the system from its maker.
If a car maker says "Here is our L5 system. It is intended to do all the things SAE requires on an L5 system" then it's an L5 system.
In other words they're telling you the system as they are selling it to you is intended to work without ever needing a human under any conditions
Because that's what L5 driving is
By SAE definition.
Tesla has never, ever, ever made such a claim about any system available to the public (including the FSD beta)
They hope to offer a system like that someday.
Today is not that day.
Tomorrow isn't looking good either.
You keep not understanding the fundamental difference between:
"The system we are offering today is intended to do this thing"
and
"The system we are offering today ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT DO THIS THING but we intend to improve it some nebulous day in the future to do so"
SAE is discussing that first one.
You are confusing it with the second one.
Mainly because I'm not wrong at all.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you I'm afraid.
powertoold
Active Member
It's not that complicated:
Tesla FSD is intended to be used as a robotaxi without driver intervention / without a driver
It's currently being developed as a level 5 system
It's currently in a small beta testing phase
Whether or not that is level 5 to you is ok, since the sae levels are stupid anyway
Tesla FSD is intended to be used as a robotaxi without driver intervention / without a driver
It's currently being developed as a level 5 system
It's currently in a small beta testing phase
Whether or not that is level 5 to you is ok, since the sae levels are stupid anyway
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
A future version of FSD is intended to be that.
That version does not currently exist.
The small beta test system is also not that and explicitly tells you it's not
Tesla FSD beta warning message said:
That is by definition and intent level 2
Elon on twitter has repeatedly explicitly said it's not reliable as recently as 2 days ago
Elon Musk said:
When SAE says they trust the stated intent of a system from the car maker at a given level, they mean the CURRENT INTENT OF THE EXISTING system, not "we someday hope some future version will do this"
The system as sold TODAY is L2- INTENDED for use with CONSTANT human supervision. They tell you this half a dozen places including the owners manual, the actual sales page, and literally every time you turn the system on.
I agree it's not that complicated, yet people keep getting it wrong. Kind of remarkable.
powertoold
Active Member
I agree with you. It's level 2 right now, but it's designed to be a level 5 system, so whatever you think or however you want to interpret the sae levels is fine. Like I said, the sae levels are stupid, so to argue over something stupid in the first place doesn't get anyone very far. That's the reason there have been constant discussion over this level or that level. Once Tesla provides a robotaxi service, it can be level 0 or 10 for all we care.
yerEVan
Active Member
I remember less than a year ago, i think, EM said you’ll be able to take a nap on the way home from work. I’m assuming he meant that ride to be in a Tesla, no?
But i seriously doubt that will happen for quite some time.
But i seriously doubt that will happen for quite some time.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
It is a prototype Level 5 system.
Prototype Level 5 systems require human supervision to be tested safely.
There is nothing wrong with the SAE levels, people just have a hard time comprehending the quantum leap it takes to go from L2 to L3 or L4 (L5 is a pipe dream). There is nothing in between.
Prototype Level 5 systems require human supervision to be tested safely.
There is nothing wrong with the SAE levels, people just have a hard time comprehending the quantum leap it takes to go from L2 to L3 or L4 (L5 is a pipe dream). There is nothing in between.
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