FSD rewrite will go out on Oct 20 to limited beta

[DanCar]

Why can't we just legally request all L5 autopilot makers to cover all accidents/damage by their own insurance?
Want to sell L5? Be ready to pay for all bugs and issues)

Insurance isn't going to be cheap when a lawsuit can cost billions. How much would you request for compensation if someone made a robot that painfully killed your beloved spouse, child, etc...

 

[DanCar]

... And nobody came up with anything- but not only is there nothing to come up with- Teslas own FSD page explicitly makes clear their aspirational intent is L4, not 5. ...

Try googling: tesla | elon level-5 . Only 104 million results. If you have trouble parsing the search results here is something more specific:
Tesla (TSLA): Elon Musk says 'very close' to level 5 autonomy complete - Electrek

I feel like we are very close to level 5 autonomy. ...
I think that I remain confident that we will have basic functionality for level 5 autonomy this year.

 

[MarcG]

Sounds to me like Elon doesn’t know what SAE’s definition of level 5 autonomy is, or at least he has a different definition of it

 

[banned-66611]

FSD beta will require constant driver supervision. Theoretically it won't cost Tesla anything if car kills someone. Call it partial self driving if that makes it easier to understand. It costs people nearly a trillion dollars each year in car accidents.

Maybe. They are being sued for how ridiculously dangerous autopilot is already and legally speaking not taking reasonable precautions does create liability.

 

[Knightshade]

Sounds to me like Elon doesn’t know what SAE’s definition of level 5 autonomy is, or at least he has a different definition of it

Yup. Or he just doesn't care.

They very clearly are selling L4, not 5, on their own website. See below too.

Perhaps Tesla didn't make the exact claim you had in mind, but this is close enough for the lay person.

Layperson? Sure.

Someone who actually read the SAE level spec? 100% not

Autopilot

Full Self-Driving Capability
All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances.

That is level 4. By literal definition.

 

[DanCar]

That is level 4. By literal definition.

No, but can be interpreted that way. Can you drive in a 4 foot flooded underpass? Well neither will Tesla. That is still level 5. Plenty more examples. The devil is in the details of what "almost all circumstances" means.

 

[Knightshade]

No, but can be interpreted that way. Can you drive in a 4 foot flooded underpass? Well neither will Tesla. That is still level 5. Plenty more examples.

Except again- no.

L5 can drive in ALL circumstances a human can. L4 can not.

Tesla explicitly sells FSD as "almost all" circumstances. That's L4. By definition.

 

[DanCar]

Except again- no.

L5 can drive in ALL circumstances a human can. L4 can not.

Tesla explicitly sells FSD as "almost all" circumstances. That's L4. By definition.

Wow so dense. I gave you an example of what "almost all" can mean. Which is won't drive in situations that a human can't. Tesla didn't specify what "almost all" means. That is N O T the literal definition of L4 or L5. Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Knightshade]

Wow so dense.

Yes, you are.

You think "circumstances it's physically impossible for any vehicle to drive at all" should count as a distinction between 4 and 5 when that's utterly nonsensical for example.

I gave you an example of what "almost all" can mean.

No, you really didn't.

You gave an example where no car can drive regardless of who or what controls it.

Spoiler: "Car is blown up with explosives" is ALSO a circumstance where FSD won't work... but it ALSO doesn't change the state between 4 and 5.[/QUOTE]

 

[DanCar]

The discussion is about literal definition of L4 and L5. The literal definition is not what you state. A car company can state "almost all circumstances" and still be level 5 if what is meant by "almost all circumstances" is that it can drive in any situation a human can. I'm not saying that is what Tesla meant. I'm saying "almost all circumstances" doesn't "literally" mean level 4.

 

[Knightshade]

Me trying to chisel info into a dense object:
The discussion is about literal definition of L4 and L5. The literal definition is not what you state.

Except, it is- and you have once again proved you're trying to discuss a standard you've not even read- let alone understood.

SAE explicitly says L5 must drive in all circumstances a human could.

Anyone who understands what L5 is (ie not you) would have no need to add "almost all circumstances" if they meant to describe L5 capability

They would need that disclaimer if they were describing L4 capability.

Which is what Tesla is doing in the FSD description.

5 - the full time performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task under all roadway and environmental conditions that can be managed by a human driver

That's L5.

Tesla, since it'll work in "almost all" circumstances, is aiming for L4.

 

[powertoold]

Tesla explicitly sells FSD as "almost all" circumstances. That's L4. By definition.

I didn't know level 5 works during floods, earthquakes, and other natural disasters as well

I think the simple analog to level 5 would be Uber. If Tesla can go wherever Uber does, then it's level 5.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Teslas current system, including FSD Beta, is not capable of performing the dynamic driving task on a sustained basis without the constant control or active monitoring of a natural person.

If it were capable it wouldn't be a prototype. Uber's vehicles were not even close to capable either, that's why they still don't have working robotaxi.

Why can't we just legally request all L5 autopilot makers to cover all accidents/damage by their own insurance?
Want to sell L5? Be ready to pay for all bugs and issues)

That's almost certainly the way it will be. That's the way the upcoming (supposedly!) Level 3 systems are, manufacturers will be liable while the system is engaged.

 

[Knightshade]

I didn't know level 5 works during floods, earthquakes, and other natural disasters as well

It works in all circumstances a human can drive.

As I just cited.

I
I think the simple analog to level 5 would be Uber. If Tesla can go wherever Uber does, then it's level 5.

Uber doesn't self drive at all (they tried it for a while and killed someone... now they're trying to sell off that division.

Again this is incredibly simple if you actually read the SAE doc

level 5 means the automated driving system can perform all aspects of the dynamic driving task under all roadway and environmental conditions that can be managed by a human driver


Tesla specifically disclaims this down to L4 by saying "almost all" circumstances.

Most likely exclusion in practice will be bad weather a human could still drive in- given today even NoA drops down to mere AP in moderate to heavy rain or anything more than light snow.

If it were capable it wouldn't be a prototype. Uber's vehicles were not even close to capable either, that's why they still don't have working robotaxi.

Capable means a non zero chance of it working. Not a 100% chance of it working.

an MLB player is capable of hitting a home run any time he goes to bat. He won't do so 100% of the time.

Someone with no arms is NOT capable of hitting a home run ever.

 

[DanCar]

As already stated several times "almost all" can mean "can drive anywhere a human can". Or stated differently "almost all" can mean: I can drive in almost all situations, the situations I don't handle are those that a human can't handle either.
Lets say that a third time since you are not getting the message. Hey I can drive in "almost all circumstances", all those handled by humans, but not those not managed by a human driver.
Repeat after me: "almost all circumstances" doesn't necessarily mean less capable than a human, since humans can't drive in all circumstances either.

 

[powertoold]

I also don't think the SAE level 5 means that it's more capable than a human in EVERY way (better than an F1 racer, Ken Block, etc. etc.). Although I don't know if there's a detailed description of level 5.

 

[Knightshade]

As already stated several times "almost all" can mean "can drive anywhere a human can".

Pro tip- repeating an incorrect statement doesn't make it less wrong.

SAE L5 specifically says it requires working in ALL circumstances a human can drive.

Tesla intentionally disclaiming FSD as working in 'almost all' circumstances only makes any sense at all in that context- that they're NOT promising L5, only L4.

 

[DanCar]

Pro tip: Not listening , and repeating false assertions will get you the moniker: dense.
If I say I can drive in "almost all circumstances", does that mean I'm level 4? I can't drive in heavily flooded areas for example.
If Tesla says the same thing, does that make them level 4? No.
You can drive in "almost all circumstances". Does mean you are level 4? If Tesla says the same, that doesn't literally mean they are level 4. The standard as we have both stated is relative to a human driver. Tesla has not stated that "almost all circumstances" means less than a human driver.

Hello Mr. Level 4, how are you doing? haha Level 4 because you can drive in "almost all circumstances". Since according to you stating "almost all circumstances" is the literal definition of level 4. Three people are telling you , you are wrong, have you understood the memo yet?

 

[drtimhill]

As already stated several times "almost all" can mean "can drive anywhere a human can". Or stated differently "almost all" can mean: I can drive in almost all situations, the situations I don't handle are those that a human can't handle either.
Lets say that a third time since you are not getting the message. Hey I can drive in "almost all circumstances", all those handled by humans, but not those not managed by a human driver.
Repeat after me: "almost all circumstances" doesn't necessarily mean less capable than a human.

The fact is the Tesla statement "almost all circumstances" is ambiguous, and probably intentionally so. Does it mean "can drive where a human can drive, but not in extreme cases where even a human would not drive", or does it mean "can drive the majority of the time, but in some unusual cases a human may have to take over" ?

The first definition suggests L5, while the second suggests L4. I don't see any way to determine which Tesla mean by "almost all circumstances", since they do not clarify the statement anywhere that I can find (I dont count Elon's tweets as formal statements).But I'm willing to bet that if it came to arguing over this in a court Tesla would lean to the L4 definition if it were a case of liability.

 

[MarcG]

The fact is the Tesla statement "almost all circumstances" is ambiguous, and probably intentionally so. Does it mean "can drive where a human can drive, but not in extreme cases where even a human would not drive", or does it mean "can drive the majority of the time, but in some unusual cases a human may have to take over" ?

The first definition suggests L5, while the second suggests L4. I don't see any way to determine which Tesla mean by "almost all circumstances", since they do not clarify the statement anywhere that I can find (I dont count Elon's tweets as formal statements).But I'm willing to bet that if it came to arguing over this in a court Tesla would lean to the L4 definition if it were a case of liability.

Bravo, well written. Until we know what Tesla meant by “almost all circumstances”, which may be never, we won’t know whether they are are claiming they’ll be L4 or L5 capable.

The arguing here doesn’t really help clarify their intentions, to be honest - it just makes the two sides arguing dig their heals deeper in their own convictions.

But then again, this shouldn’t be of any surprise these days

PS: I would personally be thrilled if Tesla gets to “just” L4 soon!