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drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
2,933
3,805
Seattle
There's nothing fundamentally different happening when you are stopped. One of the control parameters, speed, is just set to zero. The control loops continue to operate. It's best to keep them running continuously to avoid transients and instability caused by starting and stopping the digital control algorithms.
In fact its running all the time, even while you are driving manually, since it needs to take over the instant you engage FSD :)
 

Mardak

Active Member
Oct 13, 2018
1,278
2,682
USA
⁠Improved lateral control for creeping forward to get more visibility.
Potentially this could be less unnecessary jerking of the steering wheel when slowly peeking, or it could mean turning/angling for better visibility to determine if it's clear to go.

I'm hoping better steering comes from "⁠Improved static world predictions (road lines, edges, and lane connectivity) by up to 13% using a new static world auto-labeler and adding 165K auto-labeled videos" assuming the predicted path quality depended on that perception.
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,693
15,176
San Diego
Is this part of this jerky ness ?

• ⁠Improved lateral control for creeping forward to get more visibility.

We’ll see if they have addressed this bug.
Not clear what that means. Maybe it means they won’t steer as much when creeping forward. (Or maybe they will steer more to make sure the cameras have the right angle!) I don’t expect any major effect on the jerky steering though.

I don’t think small improvements in perception will resolve the issue either given the current level of uncertainty.
 
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BMW740iL

Active Member
Nov 9, 2019
1,704
1,031
Amsterdam
I am not an FSD Beta tester but does Tesla not provide more details on these aspects of FSD development like e.g. Comma ai is providing when they release. For example

Not sure if this comparison of fsd beta with openpilot is already promoted in this part of the forum but it shows how the two ai steering beta models compare in the real world today

 
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Mardak

Active Member
Oct 13, 2018
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USA

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,693
15,176
San Diego
Maybe a combination of multiple ~10% improvements of things that feed into turns have resulted in much better steering performance:
We’ll see. I guess this is literally the first time someone has said interventions are way down on a new release, so perhaps it is nearly superhuman.

It’s true that this is a Tesla employee, so we need to use extra weight with their assessments, since they are likely to be extremely accurate.

I am not holding my breath, and I am hoping for a 3-5% reduction in interventions.

Outside of unmarked streets, I have 6 well-marked turns on my way to work. FSD can reliably complete one of them, the simplest case (protected left turn single turn lane) (it has completed all of them, but one it has never done properly). Maybe we can get to two reliable.

Good news is we will know very quickly if the Scrub-O-Matic has been decommissioned.
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,693
15,176
San Diego
As expected, FSD 10.5 does not fix this problem. Is it better? Maybe, though I did not notice any difference. The car seems to be steering slightly to the right of centerline on unmarked roads vs. prior version, so the impact of the scrubbing is reduced, though it still steers left on left turns and reduces clearance for other vehicles, prior to making turns, on such streets.
 
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EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,445
36,460
Seattle, WA
On my first drive :

On the first right turn from stop, suddenly jerked the wheel to the left - so got disengaged. While I've written a lot about the jerkiness when turning right from a stop, none of the wheel action has been this much.​
The left move was hard - not the indecisive jerking back and forth we normally see. May be it would have corrected - didn't want to wait since a car was going to turn in front of me.
 

TIppy

Active Member
Jul 8, 2016
1,914
1,719
Tampa, FL
On my first drive :

On the first right turn from stop, suddenly jerked the wheel to the left - so got disengaged. While I've written a lot about the jerkiness when turning right from a stop, none of the wheel action has been this much.​
The left move was hard - not the indecisive jerking back and forth we normally see. May be it would have corrected - didn't want to wait since a car was going to turn in front of me.

I noticed less hunting on slow turns too. Maybe they've put a dead-band in to suppress lots of little movements in favor of one bigger movement.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,693
15,176
San Diego
I noticed less hunting on slow turns too. Maybe they've put a dead-band in to suppress lots of little movements in favor of one bigger movement.
One massive movement - quite a manure!

I've observed no obvious change in any deadband that may exist. Plenty of hunting. Some turns have been better, but it's likely just chance; would have to drive more to know. But some turns have been worse. Jitters and hunting and sudden jerks on my unprotected left as it tries to determine what is happening. (I do wonder how Sunset Ridge and Spring Canyon is mapped since the line painting changed a few years ago.)

10.5 is about as I expected. About the same, with a slight and appreciated shift to the right slightly on unmarked roads (the only difference that I've seen that I have some confidence might actually be a perceptible change in 10.5). Still steers left at the last second though, at intersections, which renders the rightward movement less useful since it still potentially rudely reduces clearance for people who may be turning into the street. (I just intervene when it starts this and steer the other way to maintain the gap, but at least now it approaches the intersection in roughly the right position.)
 
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EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,445
36,460
Seattle, WA
I dont think that is the intent, do you? You do realize the team is building something totally and entirely new, right? What do you expect them to do?
Fix issues.

I'm sure the intent is not to fix one issue by introducing another. There is zero reason for these jiggles when not moving. I also think they should be able to fix them in one release if they prioritize it. This is not a issue like phantom braking.

BTW, you do know I'm not new to Tesla and have been here on TMC for 12 years and almost entire of my net worth is in TSLA ? What makes you think I don't know what they are building is "totally new" ?
 
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drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
2,933
3,805
Seattle
I'm sure the intent is not to fix one issue by introducing another. There is zero reason for these jiggles when not moving. I also think they should be able to fix them in one release if they prioritize it. This is not a issue like phantom braking.

BTW, you do know I'm not new to Tesla and have been here on TMC for 12 years and almost entire of my net worth is in TSLA ? What makes you think I don't know what they are building is "totally new" ?
I think its a matter of priority .. given where they are in the development cycle I would suspect fixing the jiggles is not top of the list (its mostly just an annoyance, after all).

As for what you do or do not know, how would I know what your net worth is, or even care? Or how long you have been on this forum, or even if that is relevant? My point is that Tesla are currently focused on the fundamentals, and while its good that we report these cosmetic things as well (squeaky wheels and all that), I dont think anyone should expect them to worry about the "polish" items while they are still working on the basics.
 
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EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
14,445
36,460
Seattle, WA
I think its a matter of priority .. given where they are in the development cycle I would suspect fixing the jiggles is not top of the list (its mostly just an annoyance, after all).
It should be top priority.

Because - as we have discussed in this thread so many times and in so many ways - you can't tell if the car is doing the right thing or is about to do something bad, if it keeps jiggling the steering wheel. Steering wheel movement gives tactical and early information about the intent of the car, which we should use to disengage if something bad is going to happen. Afterall this is beta and Tesla wants us to very closely monitor and intervene. How can we monitor and intervene when the intent is not clear early ? Currently we are all taking a big chance to let it jiggle and then move. As others have indicated - they just disengage if the wheel turns the wrong way.

As for what you do or do not know, how would I know what your net worth is, or even care? Or how long you have been on this forum, or even if that is relevant?
Its relevent to figure out the context before asking stuff like - "do you know all this is new tech?!".
 
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