FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[Todd Burch]

It would be really helpful if Ashok or Elon posted a list of general issues they’re aware of and addressing.

I would feel much better if Tesla acknowledged that v12 drives too slow, creeps too slow, hesitates at some intersections, etc. so that I had more confidence that they were working on a fix.

 

[Mardak]

Depends on what emulation mode does exactly I suppose

HW4 cameras have more resolution (5MP) and color (RGGB) detection, so presumably emulating HW3 means reducing the extra information to be the same amount from before (1.2MP RCCB). This should be fine for many cases such as treating a red or orange vehicle the same way.

Emulation isn't perfect as there's other differences between the hardware, but perhaps this also results in better behavior with HW4. Unclear if Tesla is emulating lens flare, glare or other things like flicker of mismatched LED frequency:

Notably for traffic lights, 12.x with HW4 emulating HW3 might see LED traffic lights better to respond as if they weren't flickering.

 

[Todd Burch]

I find it interesting that v12 is using HW3 video for training. This means HW4 owners aren’t currently getting the benefit of extra resolution.

I would have expected them to be using HW4 training video downrezzed to HW3 for HW3 cars, because then with the same training set HW4 gets the benefit of the extra resolution and they don’t need separate training data for HW3 and HW4.

I suspect that may be for any number of these reasons (and more):

1. When they started v12 there wasn’t enough HW4 data and they wanted to prove out the e2e approach first.

2. They don’t want to waste the compute resources on downrezzing video right now.

3. They don’t yet have enough installed storage capacity to store a sufficient HW4 training set.

4. With constrained compute, training on higher res HW4 data would have taken too long. With HW3 video they can iterate faster with less time to train the model. This way they can focus on marching the nines before making HW4 even better.

5. HW4 is “incompatible enough” that using HW4 video for HW3 would be problematic.

With their dev tools, (autolabelling, data harvesting, etc) I wonder how many people they need to curate the data set for a hardware configuration.

BTW, can’t find the post now but a member of the Waymo team left Waymo and joined Tesla AI, and said their mind was blown.

This tells me Tesla has some secret sauce or functionality that Waymo does not.

 

[aronth5]

Too slow. Slowness not related to bad visibility.

Of course it is on low visibility intersections. Humor me. Find a low visibility intersection where you would lean forward if you were driving manually. Now do the intersection using FSD. When you can see cross traffic well enough to make a decision you'll note that FSD creeps another 2 feet. That slow creep is a 2-4 seconds of added time. Simple conclusion. I still love how improved this behavior is and don't mind the added delay at all. It is what it is.
For many who don't encounter low visibility intersections this will never happen to them. For me it happens every day.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Not likely yet. Like with v11 they need to train the basics before tackling more "edge cases" that are for more varied setups and dynamic situations later.View attachment 1033575

Impressive. Our jurisdiction just went to school zone in effect "Mon-Fri 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. September 1 to June 30," It is overkill because there's no exception for holidays (it is now the easier to program the speed zone cameras, the first ones sent tickets to vehicle owners on weekends and in the summer.) What is disappointing my googling couldn't come up with this in our city's traffic website (the policy is new this school year) nor could I find an online photo.

I had to walk past our local sign to confirm it (google street view is out of date but that doesn't matter as the sign is behind a tree and I didn't even know it was there for a few years and thought there was no school zone because this is a special residential boarding school so the hours are meaningless for children's safety.) I never go quickly through there because the school is for hearing, sight, and behaviourally challenged students and since kids are there Sunday night to Friday night, I just slow down automatically.

City-wide, the speed limit changes depending on which road it is on. Ours changes from 50 kph to 40 kph but others are 60 kph to 40kph.

 

[gottagofast]

The thing is, human drivers screw those things up too. I'm not sure we can expect FSD to correctly navigate every single instance perfectly every time when even humans can't do that. Is that fair?

As a driver I could see the stop sign was knocked down, idk how the car would see it, I can read the hand signals of a cop directing traffic from a traffic light that is out of order

 

[gottagofast]

Hs anyone with USS received it .1 yet? Feeling left out here

I want to know when we are getting all the special vision parking stuff

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Of course it is on low visibility intersections.

Did not say it wasn’t!!!

 

[aronth5]

It would be really helpful if Ashok or Elon posted a list of general issues they’re aware of and addressing.

I would feel much better if Tesla acknowledged that v12 drives too slow, creeps too slow, hesitates at some intersections, etc. so that I had more confidence that they were working on a fix.

Much more important would be for Ashok and Elon tell the FSD free trial testers what doesn't work like school busses, school zones, emergency vehicles, pot holes etc. Those are real safety issues new FSD users need to know about.

 

[nikolajz1]

Morning drive with 12.3.2.1 went very well. It's amazing how much better it is than 12.3 in the DC area. Actually worth the monthly subscription.

I do think it accelerates a bit too quick for my liking on both chill and normal. Only real issue I have (I also don't want to eat through my tires).

Auto speed was perfect, although I do wonder if it's smart enough to know to slow down a speed camera.

Really looking forward to seeing how this technology gets better this year. Very promising right now.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Much more important would be for Ashok and Elon tell the FSD free trial testers what doesn't work like school busses, school zones, emergency vehicles, pot holes etc. Those are real safety issues new FSD users need to know about.

You are quite right. We all know what doesn't work yet and either avoid, intervene, disengage before and after known issues and drive ourselves to avoid an emergency take-over. The random tesla driver with no interest/passion/worry about FSD will think this wide roll-out means that while it has to be supervised (and they'll figure that out quickly with regards to speed since that issue isn't fixed yet), they won't know the importance of the supervision to their pocketbook.

It should be required that they be informed of the "known" times when one must supervise. The warning message before hitting accept, “it may do the wrong thing at the worst time.” should also be highlighted. We know this but the majority of tesla owners (and anyone renting one) may not understand fully how what that means and how expensive the consequences could be.

To be honest, one would think tesla's lawyers would have this be highlighted in any "accept" screen because withholding such specific information seems to be reckless on tesla's part.

I have no idea if there will be many more accidents with millions of FSDb cars out there, being driven by millions of people who have not become accustomed to the dangers. But one would think that there will be at least an increase in fines, suspension damage, wheel damage and possibly parking lot fender benders.

(BTW in Ontario, at least, we have red light, speed, and school zone cameras that fine the vehicle owner if the vehicle is caught speeding or running lights. No points off licenses because it can't be proven who was doing the driving but the owner of the car is responsible for any fines a driver of the car triggers, so between FSDb's ignorance of speed zones, its behaviour with red lights and its inability to avoid potholes leading to damaged tires, rims, and suspensions, it can be pretty expensive to drive a tesla on FSDb here.)

 

[Bladerskb]

But, what if the data is released by Tesla? This links to data through Q4 2023.

Tesla Vehicle Safety Report | Tesla

At Tesla, we believe that technology can help improve safety. That’s why Tesla vehicles are engineered to be the safest cars in the world. We believe the unique combination of passive safety, active safety, and automated driver assistance is crucial for keeping not just Tesla drivers and...

www.tesla.com

Ppl still use this fake two sentence report as FSD safety data. Really? Two sentence report? Should every industry start using two sentence report when releasing their safety data? You Tesla fans are amazing.

 

[jebinc]

@jebinc

Hi all! I sold my junk, with FSDj, last month. Zero regrets - ZERO. Glad you all are finally enjoying an improved experience- long over due! For me, I purchased FSD in 2019, and again in 2021, not to end up with a decent L2 system, but rather a true “FULL Self Driving” L4/L5 capability. I confidently concluded my vibrating HW3 equipped Plaid will never see L4/L5, so I sold (sh)it and moved on. All the best!

Edit: As of this post, it remains unsold on the dealer’s lot - after a month.

 

[JB47394]

Does a robotaxi need to avoid every pothole?

How about Tesla first trains HW3 to avoid potholes and then we'll see what's possible? Today, FSD makes no effort at all to straddle them. That surprises me because surely they have training data of cars doing that very thing. Why didn't it translate to on-road behavior? Where's the "emergent behavior" for that?

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Hi all! I sold my junk, with FSDj, last month. Zero regrets - ZERO. Glad you all are finally enjoying an improved experience- long over due! For me, I purchased FSD in 2019, and again in 2021, not to end up with a decent L2 system, but rather a true “FULL Self Driving” L4/L5 capability. I confidently concluded my vibrating HW3 equipped Plaid will never see L4/L5, so I sold (sh)it and moved on. All the best!

Edit: As of this post, it remains unsold on the dealer’s lot - after a month.

Out of interest, what was your replacement vehicle? (We won't sell early but the car will need to be replaced in the next 4 years, if not sooner due to an accident, so I'm working on a short-list of what other dissatisfied tesla owners have migrated to. As I'm a MY owner, I doubt our tastes/needs in cars are similar but I'm still curious, just in case there is a commonality.)

 

[GWord]

Which brings up an interesting conundrum. In the future when people become more aware and understanding of self driving cars they will be more likely to cut them off, walk in front of them, block them in, etc, since self driving cars have no passion and will willing yield. We are stating to see these type of behavior towards Waymo.

My sense is that this will be a transient issue, if it is even one. Once self driving really takes hold, a-la rapid adoption of personal computers or smart phones etc… we’ll see rapid reduction of human drivers. I have to imagine insurance industry practices will play a huge part in that.

 

[Scott Chapman]

big wave according to teslafi

 

[jebinc]

Out of interest, what was your replacement vehicle? (We won't sell early but the car will need to be replaced in the next 4 years, if not sooner due to an accident, so I'm working on a short-list of what other dissatisfied tesla owners have migrated to. As I'm a MY owner, I doubt our tastes/needs in cars are similar but I'm still curious, just in case there is a commonality.)

Hello. For the moment, I’m enjoying the extra garage space. We still have the Rivian R1T and a 2023 Model Y 4680 AWD. No issues with either vehicle. Will replace the MY in a couple/few years with the Rivian R2 or R3X.

 

[Alphamax]

Hi all! I sold my junk, with FSDj, last month. Zero regrets - ZERO. Glad you all are finally enjoying an improved experience- long over due! For me, I purchased FSD in 2019, and again in 2021, not to end up with a decent L2 system, but rather a true “FULL Self Driving” L4/L5 capability. I confidently concluded my vibrating HW3 equipped Plaid will never see L4/L5, so I sold (sh)it and moved on. All the best!

Edit: As of this post, it remains unsold on the dealer’s lot - after a month.

Bye

 

[TK211X]

Is this right, did they prune all other FW pending.