FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[AlanSubie4Life]

The point is you can never just respond with a simple answer. You always complicate whatever the post is. @FSDtester@1 was stating "V12 is way better than V11". You disagreed and mention usage. Usage had nothing to do with his post. So let's try again. Do you believe V12 is better than V11? Yes or No.

total disagreement with the original post is the post is not believable when saying v11 is anywhere comparable to v12

definitely usage models exist with much higher intervention rate on v12 than v11.4.9

Do you believe V12 is better than V11? Yes or No

Nope to v11 being better than v12.

Funny. Right. You put that sarcasm everywhere these days.

When you are betting the company on the product, this is no longer a fun game of getting a good L2 assist. It is serious business, as Tesla is abandoning or at a minimum losing focus on their core competencies. It’s very risky.

That is why I am much more serious and committed to ensuring FSD is a complete success these days. This is no longer a curiosity where it did not much matter whether it was successful (all Tesla needed to do was sell excellent cheap cars, far more reliable than what they replaced, a task at which they were arguably succeeding).

Tesla needs to start “doing things right for the first time.” Used to be a motto.

 

[cyborgLIS]

Agree. For anyone who disliked your post I'd be curious why. Do you think V11 is better than V12?

I didn't dislike his post. Though I disagree with blocking someone because you disagree with them.

 

[aronth5]

AlanSubie4Life said:
Nope to v11 being better than v12.

I just loved your answer. You just couldn't bring yourself to say outright V12 is better than V11

 

[Twiglett]

Funny. Right. You put that sarcasm everywhere these days.

I’m on one of my periodic trips to Boston this week. There’s been some trouble, mainly to it being construction season, but I’ve been pretty much letting FSDS do its thing.

Lots of UPLs, oddball traffic circles, and you don’t want to know about Sullivan Square. But the FSDS worked through all of that: in particular, those left turns.

nitpicky I know, but Unprotected is a single word, it isn't Un Protected, ULT, not UPL
Pretty sure @AlanSubie4Life is highlighting that.
I wouldn't know, I've never posted any complaining posts about that (that was not an accurate statement)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Protected, ULT, not UPL
Pretty sure @AlanSubie4Life is highlighting that.

Nah, I don’t care what we call it. It’s just shorthand. UPL. ULT. CULT. Whatever.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

AlanSubie4Life said:
Nope to v11 being better than v12.

I just loved your answer. You just couldn't bring yourself to say outright V12 is better than V11

I think v12 is better than v11. (How many times exactly do I have to say this?) For me. It’s fairly close though, primarily because I do A LOT more interventions with v12 (no surprises there). But it is more comfortable to use than v11 and more capable. But very uncomfortable.

 

[cyborgLIS]

Another week and still no critical safety disengagements in a long time. Some regular disengagements of course.
Got me to thinking. What if I never disengaged or used the accelerator pedal what percentage of my drives would "successfully" reach the destination? Sure that would mean I'd annoy other drivers and when FSD misses or takes the wrong FSD would have to reroute. I think the biggest problem would be coming up to a construction zone where the officer/road crew person wanted me to stop since FSD doesn't respond to hand gestures. Except for this type of disengagement I find it hard to think the percentage wouldn't be over 99%. What do others think?

I don't think it would be 99% but it would be over 50%. Depends on the route of course. There are a couple of stops signs I frequent that lead into highway traffic where the car simply will not move because of continuous traffic flowing at highway speed. The car will not use the shoulder lane as an aid to merge in, and is too timid to accelerate fast enough to shoot through a gap. It could genuinely get stuck here eternally.

Also had an odd moment the other day where the car had a lapse and just sat still after the light turned green and traffic had cleared. That's only happened to me once ever though and I travel through that intersection regularly,

 

[FSDtester#1]

I didn't dislike his post. Though I disagree with blocking someone because you disagree with them.

I agree with you that you shouldn't block someone you disagree with.
If I did that, everyone here knows there would never be any back and forth with me and the person I disagree with the most. The point of blocking this person was because they are a new poster, and any statement by a newer fsd user saying v12 isn't better than v11 is a waste of our time to read their future posts.
At least some people who shall remane nameless, are consistent with their opinions, and have been using the software for years, therefore has a right to their opinion and to post without being blocked.

As an aside, there would be too many missed funny jokes back and forth as a result of blocking certain posters.

This is a place to share experiences, good and bad. What I believe gets people shaking their head is how someone can have a completely different experience with the same software. Hence, all of our habits of being subjective in our critiques.

 

[Pdubs]

Maybe V12 is just different from V11. I wouldn’t consider it better - broken and useless is still broken and useless, it just feels a bit different. But having to disengage like every other mile isn’t fun or encouraging.

I’d sell it and buy a Mercedes

 

[Sharps97]

Car is fine and fun. Just FSD is worthless. No harm in leaving it off as a reminder of a very expensive lesson learned. Saw another thread that the free trial conversion rate was like 2%, so it seems like I’m not alone in my assessment of FSD.

 

[gottagofast]

I think v12 is better than v11. (How many times exactly do I have to say this?) For me. It’s fairly close though, primarily because I do A LOT more interventions with v12 (no surprises there). But it is more comfortable to use than v11 and more capable. But very uncomfortable.

Biggest difference for me is the car doesn’t slam the brake when someone pulls out in front of me a 1/4 mile up the road

 

[aronth5]

I think v12 is better than v11. (How many times exactly do I have to say this?) For me. It’s fairly close though, primarily because I do A LOT more interventions with v12 (no surprises there). But it is more comfortable to use than v11 and more capable. But very uncomfortable.

That was informative. Thank you.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Biggest difference for me is the car doesn’t slam the brake when someone pulls out in front of me a 1/4 mile up the road

Yes this is definitely an improvement.

I have not tested whether the car will slam on the brakes when someone pulls out 75 feet in front, or turns across my lane immediately in front.

 

[cyborgLIS]

Car is fine and fun. Just FSD is worthless. No harm in leaving it off as a reminder of a very expensive lesson learned. Saw another thread that the free trial conversion rate was like 2%, so it seems like I’m not alone in my assessment of FSD.

There's just not a lot of excitement over the idea of autonomous cars to begin with. Most people are not tech enthusiasts. They want comfortable cars or cars that can go fast and make sounds. Just from reading this thread it's evident that the majority of FSD subscribers/purchasers are indeed tech enthusiasts (myself included). The only way I see FSD achieving mass appeal is if it became autonomous to the point that it has practical benefit. I.e. the owner can read a book while riding or send it to a friend's house for ride sharing, Even the current reduced price is too high for the utility of the feature, which is really nothing. At this point it's just a form of entertainment for tech enthusiasts. The rest of the population would have more fun driving the car themselves. I find myself wanting to drive the car myself on regular routes that I feel FSD has nothing new to show me, until a new version comes out

 

[laiod]

When will the highway stack be on V12? Any word on this?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

When will the highway stack be on V12? Any word on this?

There’s no incentive for it.

AP/NOA transitioning to v11 first is more likely.

That keeps the Tesla FSD mileage curve looking good.

While v12 may ultimately be better on the highway, Tesla will need those miles from v11 FSD before v12 is validated sufficiently.

 

[nikolajz1]

Had my first serious safety disengagement on V12. The car just wanted to just go across that flat median, ignoring all the white lines from the left lane exiting the roundabout

 

[Todd Burch]

Most common and problematic issues with v12 for me are

• Wobble when attempting a lane change (separate from the lane selection issue). Confuses surrounding drivers and sometimes conditions change before it can safely complete the lane change. Sometimes gives up on the lane change entirely. I don't see people raise this issue enough. Maybe it's worse for me because I drive on "v12 highways" a lot. This phenomenon didn't exist in v11 and I can't even imagine why it would happen now with machine learning. Do they have video clips of people driving back and forth while attempting lane changes? Happens on about 50% of lane changes, regardless of whether the lane change was user-requested or initiated by FSD.
• Much improved but still lousy performance at intersections, especially stop signs. Often needs a giant gap in order to proceed (and even when the road is empty, often just sits still). Exacerbated by the painful NHTSA stops. Unacceptable during remotely busy traffic. Better to just hit the accelerator to avoid confusing and frustrating other drivers.
• Will still destroy your car during pothole season if you let it.

Wobble: I see the exact same lane change hesitation and have heard it mentioned before. Didn't Elon say that was addressed in v12.4?

Intersections: Yeah I think *everyone* has complained about the slow creep and hesitation. Hopefully this is just conservatism they built into the first e2e release. Should get better.

 

[Todd Burch]

Those of you saying FSD v12 is terrible and worthless. Show us video. That is a significant mischaracterization of every public video I've seen on v12. So either you're grossly exaggerating, something's wrong, or for some reason your experience is dramatically different than the rest of us.

Two more 30 minute drives today in a semi-urban area with decent Saturday evening traffic. No disengagements.

 

[Singuy]

Wobble: I see the exact same lane change hesitation and have heard it mentioned before. Didn't Elon say that was addressed in v12.4?

Intersections: Yeah I think *everyone* has complained about the slow creep and hesitation. Hopefully this is just conservatism they built into the first e2e release. Should get better.

Plus it's not safety related. No one died from a car turning into an intersection too cautiously. If people find it annoying, then go kick dirt. It will literally delay their travels by seconds which will be made up by their rage speeding afterwards...actually it increases the chance of death for the impatient...but that's a personal problem.