FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[JulienW]

It does a terrible job in busy parking lots.

In a parking garage, Navigation thought it was driving on the street outside the garage. I don't know what it would have done if I had enabled FSD, because it seemed like a bad idea to try it. This was exiting after an event, so traffic was bumper-to-bumper going down the ramps with no room for error.....

Actually it does a good job in parking lots considering it hasn't been trained on them yet. Parking lots (aka ASS & Banish) is coming soon but NOT here yet. In parking lots it is "figuring out" how to drive based on City Street training data.

Also I live over a gigantic parking deck (about 1¼ miles in circumference) and our parking is in a nested area. I "play" around with enabling FSDS and it will follow lanes and make turns but of course has no "idea" were it is since there in zero training on this so far and no way to Navigate.

 

[Todd Burch]

It does a terrible job in busy parking lots.

In a parking garage, Navigation thought it was driving on the street outside the garage. I don't know what it would have done if I had enabled FSD, because it seemed like a bad idea to try it. This was exiting after an event, so traffic was bumper-to-bumper going down the ramps with no room for error.

On a 6-lane UPL, it waited so long to cross the near lanes, and moved so slowly, that it had to stop in the middle of them because before it reached the far lanes, traffic was approaching from the right.

Why would it need to go 15% above the limit at all times?

It’s not intended to be used in parking lots.

Driving in parking lots will be an entirely separate neural network that’s trained purely on parking lot driving.

Much like how the car currently transitions from v12 to the old highway stack when getting on the highway, it will transition to a separate neural network when pulling into parking lots.

You will see significantly better behavior when this is implemented. (12.4? 12.5? We don’t know for sure yet).

Clearly there are still speed issues. They will get addressed—we are still on just the very first publicly-released e2e version and internally Tesla is already several fully-retrained revisions ahead of that. (I think even 12.6 was mentioned).

 

[AudreyHTX1]

I forgot to mention, 12.3.6 still doesn't take any notice of any speed limit sign over 60mph if it's on anything other than a divided road.
Which is really annoying as that is most roads out of town here in Texas, we have 65,70,75 on two lane roads out in the country and FSDS doesn't spot them.
It spilled coffee on my shirt when I made the mistake of taking a sip just at the time it decided to floor it to close the gap it left in traffic - extreme rubber banding seems to have gotten worse in 12.3.6 in chill mode. Engaging normal/average gets better gaps but it also makes way more terrible lane choices.
So close to being really rather good.
Very interested to see what 12.4 will bring, but that does mean how loose my interpretation of "two weeks" will be. The A.S.S definition means sometime next year, or so.

12.3.4 routinely ignored speed limit signs above 55 on any other than a divided highway.

 

[AudreyHTX1]

Yes especially entering a city. When the speed limit changes from 55 down to 35 it seems to stay at 55 way too long enough time to get a ticket is there anyway of adjusting this so that it will slow down faster?

This was driving me crazy! I always had to brake and thus disengage.

Turn off Auto Max. Then you can set the max speed via automatic offset (% or absolute offset from the current speed limit) and manual real time adjustments via steering wheel buttons/scrollwheel. Even on Auto Max, the UI responds to the scrollwheel inputs but does not make it obvious what the changes are to the max speed (if any).

I already have AutoMax off, never turned it on. FSD just refuses to slow more than a couple miles an hour from 55 entering a small town. It displays the correct lower speed limit immediately. Dialing down thumbwheel has no effect. I have to disengage to slow.

 

[PianoAl]

12.3.4 routinely ignored speed limit signs above 55 on any other than a divided highway.

It's inconsistent on this road. Sometimes it gets the 65 mph sign, other times not.

 

[PianoAl]

The amount of inconsistency from one drive to the next is stunning. Yesterday the car just kept driving with wheels on the double yellow line rumble strip on a straightaway until I disengaged.

On a related note, has anyone been pulled over due to FSD behavior? If so, what did you tell the officer?

 

[PianoAl]

Will still destroy your car during pothole season if you let it.

That's a tough nut to crack. I came upon a small pothole going 65 mph on a highway and had almost no time to decide it was a hole and turn to avoid it. My immediate thought: FSD will never be able to do that. Big, obvious potholes at slow speed, maybe.

If they try to solve it, we're going to have a new acronym: PPA, Phantom Pothole Avoidance.

 

[JB47394]

A significant number of accidents are caused by two cars making otherwise-minor mistakes at the same time and place. If only one car makes a mistake, the other car can usually take evasive action to avoid a collision.

Watch those dash cam compilation videos. After years of watching them, I'd claim that the majority of accidents are a result of one person doing something really dumb, leaving the other person little to no chance to avoid. It may be just that the majority of video-worthy accidents are like this, but there certainly are plenty of them, and minor bobbles and even misses do make it into these videos.

The classics are:

1. A driver turning left through oncoming traffic doesn't see a car or just doesn't look, resulting in them having a head-on with an oncoming car.
2. A driver is distracted, doesn't see stopped traffic at a red light, and plows into the back of the car in their lane.
3. A driver is distracted, doesn't see the red light, and plows into the side of cross traffic.
4. A driver performs a left turn or even a U-turn while crossing lanes of traffic going in the same direction. The adjacent car gets hit.
5. A driver turning left through one or more lanes of stopped cars, only to get nailed by a car coming down the additional clear lane.
6. A driver losing control because of road conditions.

It's certainly true that minor events can also lead to an accident, and those cases are usually down to the second driver just not driving defensively. They will be offended by the other driver's infraction and feel a need to assert their right of way. The first driver probably isn't even aware of the second, so they end up in an accident. The drivers who don't drive defensively are the ones that are big on "communicating" with the other driver. Swearing, leaning on the horn, etc.

My favorite sometimes happens when a driver is turning left through oncoming traffic. They're doing something unsafe, but they should still be able to make it if the oncoming driver just passes to their rear. But the oncoming driver is fixated on passing to their front. So they move farther and farther right, sometimes crossing an entire lane in order to "go around" other driver. They don't, of course, and nail the turning car, at speed, sometimes flipping them over. I find it amazing to watch the fixation on passing to the car's front.

 

[JB47394]

If FSD stopped making left turns it would appear maddening to most/all of us but it is possible to achieve.

All it takes is traffic circles.

 

[JB47394]

That's a tough nut to crack.

Collect the data as the potholes are hit, phone home, and share that with other cars. Same for when the potholes are filled. Tesla could do so much with vehcle data collection, and I know lots of us are confused as to why they don't do it. Perhaps too much LTE data would become prohibitively expensive.

Now we know why Starlink is adding cellular coverage. Well, maybe not.

 

[PianoAl]

Do you think V11 is better than V12?

For my usage, country highways with little traffic, V11 was better. Note that I rarely let the car make UPLs, and I take over in dicey situations.

With V12:

1. I need to use the accel pedal frequently to get up to the speed limit. There's a big difference between letting the car drive vs. continuously monitoring and adjusting the speed.
2. The car often doesn't stay in the lane, riding the center line.
3. The car doesn't slow down fast enough for decreases in speed limit.
4. It's slower at handling stop signs.

 

[lzolman]

I had my first safety intervention today in over a month of using it. It freaked out over a jogger at the side of the road. It usually handles them fine by crossing into the other lane a little to give them some space. My guess is that it couldn’t see around the curve on the road to determine that was safe, so it started beeping and I had to take over. It turns out the jogger was the head football coach at Texas, so running him over would have gone over particularly badly.

I've had several cases where FSD did not give a jogger running toward me anywhere near as much room as it should've, even with a clear view of the empty road ahead. Once the jogger was rounding the corner I was turning right into, and the other time it was on a straightaway but the jogger had to be a bit further out into the road than usual due to some obstructions in her way. Once I didn't have enough time to react, the other time I did disengage to give more room.

 

[lzolman]

"I couldn't care less."

Ismo should do a bit on this...

 

[PianoAl]

Ismo should do a bit on this...

 

[drtimhill]

Much like how the car currently transitions from v12 to the old highway stack when getting on the highway, it will transition to a separate neural network when pulling into parking lots.

But that is temporary .. the plan is to transition v11 highway and replace with a V12 highway NN stack also. However, I agree that the car has NOT been trained on parking lots yet so complaints are pointless.

 

[EVNow]

The amount of inconsistency from one drive to the next is stunning. Yesterday the car just kept driving with wheels on the double yellow line rumble strip on a straightaway until I disengaged.

On a related note, has anyone been pulled over due to FSD behavior? If so, what did you tell the officer?

@Singuy here is your answer to “what lane keeping issues”.

 

[Singuy]

@Singuy here is your answer to “what lane keeping issues”.

Still haven't experienced this since v12 after 3k+ miles.

 

[EVNow]

Well, maybe FSD still sucks for you. Who knows, maybe tomorrow it'll do something stupid and wipes away my entire confidence over the past few hundred miles of disengagement free driving. We humans are just biased like that.

Doesn’t suck for me. I look at V12 as a significant upgrade. But not the best thing since sliced bread nor cold fusion level breakthrough.

V10 - 1 disengagement in 5 miles - 2022
V11 - 1 disengagement in 10 miles - 2023
V12 - 1 disengagement in 20 miles. - 2024

So, when will we get to RT level and how ? Both V10 and V11 quickly hit a plateau and needed major architectural changes to break out of.

 

[EVNow]

Still haven't experienced this since v12 after 3k+ miles.

Not the point. Do you acknowledge that others are having these issues ?

 

[KArnold]

Came across an interesting situation on 12.3.6.

Forgive my amateur graphics. I'm on FSD northbound (green car) at the below on a 35 MPH road approaching a line of stopped cars at a stoplight. The red car in the business parking lot is signaling to turn left in front of me southbound but is waiting on other southbound traffic to clear. Without intervention, FSD v11 would have pulled up the leading cars bumper blocking his path. FSD v12 actually completely stopped short to allow room for him to pull out in front of me, then creeped forward after he turned.

Nice..

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