FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[DrGriz]

Like you have no idea.

---> Edit... just to keep my train of thought.

Yes, and in the past FSD was worse.

My current version isn't exactly great either, even though much improved. But in the past, FSD releases had fewer Beta Testers to screw up and go bitch, and frankly it wasn't worthy enough for the average driver, nor the media et al to be of a serious threat. But it sure feels like it's getting that way now, just look at this thread.

As the population of existing FSD users widens, we are likely at the level of public use and awareness that is causing Tesla to be more covert in V12 release. I think they realize they need to manage perception here - the path of least resistance. Scrutiny is peaking. Which leads me to conclude a wider release is iterating much like past upgrades, just internally to Tesla this time using their own drivers plus more of the archives (likely plentiful).

The most amazing part of V12 that can I see is steering smoothness and intersection staging/creep. Yes, those quirks on our versions are nerve racking!!! But I haven't seen turns into a pylon in a long, long time, so it's a bit early in learning when I compare to prior releases.

Publicly (including Wall St), FSD is moving from being judged as just a rich kid's toy into an extremely valuable utility about to scale up. So ANY and ALL quirks will be on all the front pages with V12, (along with a dozen other car commercials appearing to do the same thing of course). Soon, Joe Plumber will think FSD is about to drive off a bridge just like in the movies. It's an easy fear trigger burned into our brains. This thread is going to get even hotter yet.

Not sure I'm gonna stick around for an all out mud fight (unless it's something really funny), but to quote BTO, I bet "You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet".

All I want it to do is stop making a random unprotected left turn every time I pass an intersection a mile from my house, and to stop slowing down to 25 in a 65 mph speed zone on a major US numbered highway (which is posted and has never been 25 mph since it was a dirt track) because, whatever.

 

[SOULPEDL]

All I want it to do is stop making a random unprotected left turn every time I pass an intersection a mile from my house, and to stop slowing down to 25 in a 65 mph speed zone on a major US numbered highway (which is posted and has never been 25 mph since it was a dirt track) because, whatever.

That's all?

 

[DrGriz]

That's all?

It would be a solid start.

 

[PianoAl]

because the car did try to hit a road marker/sign. Ya, oops.

Yeah, it was wrong and it probably would have hit the marker, but we don't know for sure since the driver took over.

I had a turn where the car seemed destined to go off the road, but I intervened. Next time I waited longer, and the car corrected itself at the last second.

I'm sure they exist, but I've seen very few instances of Teslas on FSD actually colliding with something.

 

[zoomer0056]

All I want it to do is stop making a random unprotected left turn every time I pass an intersection a mile from my house

I don't have FSD or EAP. But my 2022 MSLR does have navigation. There are usually two or three routes that I can choose from. Does FSD navigation have the same flexibility?

 

[Blue_Model_S]

I don't have FSD or EAP. But my 2022 MSLR does have navigation. There are usually two or three routes that I can choose from. Does FSD navigation have the same flexibility?

Yes, it does. It follows the route you choose.

 

[Supcom]

I don't have FSD or EAP. But my 2022 MSLR does have navigation. There are usually two or three routes that I can choose from. Does FSD navigation have the same flexibility?

All cars in North America use the same navigation system.

 

[Kablooie]

Yeah, it was wrong and it probably would have hit the marker, but we don't know for sure since the driver took over.

I had a turn where the car seemed destined to go off the road, but I intervened. Next time I waited longer, and the car corrected itself at the last second.

I'm sure they exist, but I've seen very few instances of Teslas on FSD actually colliding with something.

That’s what I’ve wondered. Cases where it almost hits something but the driver takes over. Would it have corrected the problem itself? Of course if it scared the driver it’s an issue that needs to be fixed but it might not have been actually dangerous.

 

[DrGriz]

Yes, it does. It follows the route you choose.

Except in my case, where it absolutely makes an unprotected Left turn repeatedly in the same two spots, one a mile from my home and one in Central Washington 350 miles away. It diverges from the blue line navigation course. AP does not make this mistake.

 

[SOULPEDL]

That’s what I’ve wondered. Cases where it almost hits something but the driver takes over. Would it have corrected the problem itself? Of course if it scared the driver it’s an issue that needs to be fixed but it might not have been actually dangerous.

I keep wanting to see if I hit the accel pedal, will it not hit the pedestrians in front of me?
How about the wall in my garage? Can I ram it still? Real question... (hesitant to try it).

 

[SOULPEDL]

I've seen tests to show it will stop for things, what about a "Floor it" test? Anyone try them?

 

[zoomer0056]

Except in my case, where it absolutely makes an unprotected Left turn repeatedly in the same two spots, one a mile from my home and one in Central Washington 350 miles away. It diverges from the blue line navigation course. AP does not make this mistake.

I wonder how you have the setting that allows you to save some time by allowing the car to make an automatic change. Make the time savings unrealistic or turn that setting off.

 

[zoomer0056]

I keep wanting to see if I hit the accel pedal, will it not hit the pedestrians in front of me?
How about the wall in my garage? Can I ram it still? Real question... (hesitant to try it).

Try it ... but not on your garage wall or live pedestrians. Use some cardboard boxes.

 

[Supcom]

I keep wanting to see if I hit the accel pedal, will it not hit the pedestrians in front of me?
How about the wall in my garage? Can I ram it still? Real question... (hesitant to try it).

Yes, I believe that you can still run into things, though the car may try to mitigate the collision. If you seriously want to know the answer, set up some empty cardboard boxes to resemble a wall and try it. Let us know how it goes.

 

[DrGriz]

I wonder how you have the setting that allows you to save some time by allowing the car to make an automatic change. Make the time savings unrealistic or turn that setting off.

Nope. It turns up a dead end road, not an alternate route.

 

[MC3OZ]

I left out "should".

Absolutely untrue.

For over a year FSDb would try and make a left at an intersection it was not physically possible to make a left at becuause construction had changed the shape of the intersection-- because the map hadn't been updated. It was visually obvious this manouver couldn't be done but it'd keep trying until a map update a month or two ago.

The current map FSD always stops at a stop sign on the map in my neighborhood. Except there is no stop sign there, and never has been.

What it sees "should" always take priority over the map.

If it is relying too heavily on the map, that is a crutch that needs to be discarded.

If / when you get V12, it will be interesting to see if the behaviour persists,

 

[Mardak]

Yes, I believe that you can still run into things, though the car may try to mitigate the collision

I've been wondering if end-to-end will have training of what people do when pressing the accelerator even if it otherwise would have wanted to slow down. The examples seem to have been for accelerating towards a stopped object, and this can also happen when traffic ahead stops suddenly and people accelerate to make a quick lane change, so would end-to-end realize that intent and steer away from the object?

Another situation for accelerating could be to continue from a stop sign sooner if FSD Beta is hesitating too long, but at least for 11.x, if the path is to make a left turn and you press the accelerator, it doesn't seem to understand that it should make a wider turn to go behind the oncoming vehicle going straight. Potentially end-to-end could understand that out and steer straighter instead of making a sharp turn towards the other vehicle.

Both of these cases are when the driver could steer differently when accelerating, but if there's no safe way to steer, does the system treat it as a human driver pressing both the accelerator and brakes at the same time similar to "Both pedals pressed / Motor power reduced?" Or will it be like current explicit control code showing "Cruise control will not brake / Accelerator pedal is currently pressed."

 

[Knightshade]

I left out "should".

I'd agree with usually should-- for super obvious things like the left that no longer exists I mentioned for example-- or road closes signs (which AFAIK are still pretty hit and miss)... but not all-- see below-

What it sees "should" always take priority over the map.

If it is relying too heavily on the map, that is a crutch that needs to be discarded.

If / when you get V12, it will be interesting to see if the behaviour persists,

OTOH, we've also seen cases (posted, not personally) where the map had a stop sign that does exist but is overgrown or blocked to the point the camera might miss it. Should it ignore the map and drive right through it?

Much like all the local differences in laws about everything from red-light turns to parking rules, It's one of many problems that there's just no easy/obvious solution for.... (speed limits are another tricky one where the "if it doesn't see a sign" behavior has varied from time to time and place to place sometimes using map data, sometimes not)

 

[Goose66]

I think they realize they need to manage perception here

Sorry, that shipped has sailed. Years ago!

 

[SOULPEDL]

Sorry, that shipped has sailed. Years ago!

Well, not quite. The fact that we can't test FSD V12 (to record faults and share on youtube) is both a cautious move (big step change), and to manage the perception on this one. What other reason if it is actually better than V11? Because it's still too young a system, making silly mistakes. This will pass, but is my evidence of why it is not yet public. And this coupled with the surprise soon. (IDK, I just know).