Tesla: Hey man I took a hit of FSD and I'm starting a really groovy and mellow acid trip so are you up for a road trip before I crash? You keep an eye out for the fuzz so I don't freak out and end in a downer. I sure hope The Pusher Man Elon will spread more Electric Kool-Aid to everyone so we can all dropout and open our minds. We cool.
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd hard and late braking fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
Ah yes, the subsequent lane change from the right lane to left lane was unsafe. The honking vehicle switched from the outer-left turn lane to the inner-left turn lane while the Tesla made its right turn, so unclear if end-to-end was expecting that vehicle to stay in the outer lane or failing to adjust for others vehicles doing unexpected/unsafe(/illegal?) lane changes during a turn. Or potentially 12.2.1 was overfit on primarily checking the repeater camera for clearance, and here it needed to check the pillar camera but was complicated by the Tesla turning at the same time as a vehicle just a few seconds earlier was towards its front. I would think simultaneous turning with oncoming traffic towards the same direction is relatively uncommon.
There was very little progress with 11.x (released March 2023) for most of last year probably because Tesla switched priorities in April to focusing on 12.x. Indeed, there's a lot of new behaviors and much improved comfort with end-to-end that now completes whole trips for you, so it'll be interesting if others are able to experience these significant improvements on their drives as well.
Before 11.x release, FSD Beta usage averaged around 12M mi/mo on city streets, and now with highways, usage has jumped up closer to 80M mi/mo. Potentially usage will similarly significantly increase with wide release of 12.x if your experience is common across the fleet.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Why would this be uncommon?
Seems like a pretty common scenario.
This exact situation happens all the time.
Specifically checking oncoming traffic for a lane change? A similar situation of checking oncoming traffic for a turn is indeed much more common and actually executed nicely by 12.x finding a gap in vehicles making the outer-left turn. While in our minds, these two situations (watching oncoming traffic for lane change vs gap to enter) are probably very similar, I wouldn't be surprised by traditional control code or neural network models treating them differently. Typically you track vehicles coming from behind to decide if it's clear to change lanes, but here the vehicle to track came from in front.
Yes, for me. Every time I need to go westbound onto the highway. The link to the intersection is below.
Both the oncoming traffic and I are turning from a single turn lane onto a 3 lane one-way road west bound.
Right hand turns on a red are legal at that intersection* (see below for the exception). There is a left turn arrow for the oncoming lanes. Legally, I can make a right hand turn into the right most lane (either from the red or if we both have a green), just as the left turning cars can turn left into the left most lane.
The complicating factor is that I need to get over to the left lane to access the freeway within a short city block. Further complication is potholes in the right hand lane, so I don't take that turn at speed. I then have to change lanes to my left, 2x to access the on-ramp. What actually happens is neither turning car turns into their lane, both go for the centre lane (fewest potholes.)
So, V12, if it is following the rules would need to confirm that the opposite turning car has turned into its lane or not immediately made a lane change. That lane change could be to turn into the car dealership, there doesn't have to be a reason for it, V12 needs to be looking to see if the lane it wants has a car in it. Period.
In the video above, I agree with those who say that the tesla was at least rude, at worst driving dangerously. They could make the turn but then it was to stop and wait to make the lane change. I'm thinking V12 is suffering from knowing the car was there and then forgetting there was a car there and starting its calculations 'fresh'. After all, there would be no-one in that lane from cross traffic since the tesla turned on a green light so cross traffic had the red. It just completely forgot/ignored the oncoming cars also turning onto that street.
In my jurisdiction, you must turn into the nearest lane, or the one assigned by road markings. No-one actually does that consistently (even I usually partly turn into the centre lane, straddling the lane lines if I know it is clear because I'm avoiding the potholes), so full awareness of what drivers are doing around me is important. In my case, I have to be aware that any driver behind me on the turn has not taken the centre lane before I make my lane change fully into it, and then the next lane. The majority of drivers making the turn with me (from either direction, are heading for the on-ramp but there is no reason for the left-turning vehicles to not want to continue west on the road and changing lanes to continue their journey prepared to turn north at the first business or street.
* The Exception: there is a fire station there on the south-west cornerand when the trucks are responding to an alarm the intersection turns to all-directions red and the fire trucks go east on the one-way road in the wrong direction in order to head north or south (south leads to the other half of the one-way road heading east. I don't ever expect FSDb to not attempt the right-turn-on-red in that situation since what happens is a non-standard sign illuminates saying you can't make the turn. This is why I'm likely to never use FSD through this intersection (or would always have to be prepared to disengage), although there is a local youtuber who does, he's just never hit it when there is a fire call. At that point, it is a long red (about 5 minutes) and if you are the lead car, you take a helluva lot of abuse from the drivers behind you who don't understand what is happening and lean on their horns because you aren't turning right on a red.
Google Maps
powertoold
Active Member
That makes no sense, if a human tries to aggressively do something, they're also hallucinating?
Hallucination in this context is like swerving around a non-existent car or obstacle, seeing an non-existent situation and responding to it
A great example for others of what this may look like, that I'm sure we're all well aware of is phantom breaking. But that's not FSDb.
In that scenario the car (either through sensor data or visuals) "believes" (hallucinating) there is an imminent threat unless it slows down.
jebinc
Well-Known Member
And there always will be a long line of fanatics, patiently waiting for the next swig of his yellow electric Koolaid.
We can't, because V12 isn't telling us what its perception of reality is. We'd need to compare that to our own to know if it was hallucinating. The V11 visualization lets us spot perception hallucinations, but stuff like phantom braking remains a mystery in certain cases because V11 doesn't tell us why it's braking. It might be perception issues, but it might also be reasoning problems (derivative reactions to perception). V12 tells us nothing except what we can infer from its behavior, and that's a tough row to hoe.
Another case of v12.2.1 (@0:25) trying to pass a long line of traffic around a blind curve. Fortunately it corrected itself at the last moment. FSD seems to performs better with stop and go traffic and in contrast more consistently fails when approaching stop/go traffic with higher closing speeds.
Why??? Too myopic? Unable to process the scene fast enough? Lack of appropriate training? Feeble end to end 'path' can't select the correct maneuver more than one step ahead?
I'm guessing the latter which gets exacerbated with higher closing speeds.
Why??? Too myopic? Unable to process the scene fast enough? Lack of appropriate training? Feeble end to end 'path' can't select the correct maneuver more than one step ahead?
I'm guessing the latter which gets exacerbated with higher closing speeds.
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So, seems TeslaFI installs of V12 have crawled to a stop.. is that because every semi internal or external fanboy influencer has gotten it, or is it too early for any real prime time delivery?
I think the rain may contribute to this behavior. When it rains V12 limits the speed. If this happens on a sunny day V12 may behave differently.
jebinc
Well-Known Member
Speaking of NOT patiently waiting and the NEXT swig where the hell is 12.3?Looks like a complete rollout v12 by end of 1st quarter is getting dicy. We only have about 2 ½ "two weeks" left.
Right; as noted earlier, I voted with my feet (and wallet) and got off of this "circle-jerk" Elon FSDj train, yesterday! Enjoy the "mind-blowing," and "not a beta release" v12 FSDj!
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Good luck we will miss you. Enjoy the Rivian forum.Right; as noted earlier, I voted with my feet and wallet and got off of this "circle-jerk" Elon FSDj train, yesterday! Enjoy the "mind-blowing," and "not a beta release" v12 FSDj!
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
But it was a right turn only lane (going straight would have sent you up the off ramp of the freeway). My interpretation is that regardless of the law there is a social understanding that both directions will turn at the same time and there is some subtlety to that negotiation that is not captured in the video.
v12.2.1 is too human.
Last night when navigating thru a narrow street and seeing two persons standing in the middle of the street next to their parked car, holding each other and kissing passionately, FSD made loud beeps and showed the red wheel telling me to take control.
Last night when navigating thru a narrow street and seeing two persons standing in the middle of the street next to their parked car, holding each other and kissing passionately, FSD made loud beeps and showed the red wheel telling me to take control.
It didn't try to pass, and it wasn't a blind curve.
I couldn't tell if V12 was just going around the parked car just before the end of the stopped line of cars, or if the fact that the last car in line came off its brakes without moving much, making V12 think that it was a stopped car which it should go around. Once the brakes came back on, V12 dropped in behind it.
The steering wheel didn't give off any indication that it was confused. The movements were entirely fluid.
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