FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[Pdubs]

Will the nag eventually make a noise if you don’t notice it? There’s been times when I even had my hand on the wheel but wasn’t giving it enough force I guess, If it does make a noise does that count as a strike? If it makes a noise how much time do you have before it counts as a strike

it'll beep. then you have seconds to present torque to the wheel. Then it'll SCREAM and show you a dirty picture, then you're done.

 

[BLUBER]

For Michigan, right turns must go into closest lane. Left turns are only restricted in the case of a one way road to a one way road.
This allows simultaneous left and right turns onto a 4 lane road.
However a double left single right into two lanes? That's cray cray, and I can't find a right vs left yeild priority rule beyond just yeilding to vehicles in the intersection.

View attachment 1022580

The quote you posted says "Approach for a left turn shall be made in that portion of the right half of the roadway nearest the center line"

You should read 257.650 of the Michigan Vehicle Code. It pertains to right-of-way, specifically for left turns.
257.650 Right-of-way; turning left at intersection; violation as civil infraction.

Sec. 650.

(1) The driver of a vehicle within an intersection intending to turn to the left shall yield the right of way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard

I checked MN, WI, and MI, and all three states say that when turning left, you must turn into the left-most lane. When turning right, you must turn into the right-most lane.
Then in other sections of the code pertaining to right-of-way, all three states say that a driver turning left must yield the right-of-way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard.

You should check both the laws for turning left AND the right-of-way laws, because rules for left/right turns are in a different part of the code than right-of-way rules.

In California you can usually turn into whichever lane you want (there are obvious exceptions). In this case it looks like going directly to the far lane (not quite what FSD did which was part of the problem) was legal.

According to California Vehicle Code...

VEHICLE CODE - VEH​

DIVISION 11. RULES OF THE ROAD [21000 - 23336]​

( Division 11 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

CHAPTER 6. Turning and Stopping and Turning Signals [22100 - 22113]​

( Chapter 6 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

22100.​

Except as provided in Section 22100.5 or 22101, the driver of any vehicle intending to turn upon a highway shall do so as follows:

(a) Right Turns. Both the approach for a right-hand turn and a right-hand turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except:

(1) Upon a highway having three marked lanes for traffic moving in one direction that terminates at an intersecting highway accommodating traffic in both directions, the driver of a vehicle in the middle lane may turn right into any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered.

(2) If a right-hand turn is made from a one-way highway at an intersection, a driver shall approach the turn as provided in this subdivision and shall complete the turn in any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered.

(3) Upon a highway having an additional lane or lanes marked for a right turn by appropriate signs or markings, the driver of a vehicle may turn right from any lane designated and marked for that turning movement.

(b) Left Turns. The approach for a left turn shall be made as close as practicable to the left-hand edge of the extreme left-hand lane or portion of the roadway lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of the vehicle and, when turning at an intersection, the left turn shall not be made before entering the intersection.

So far as right-of-way goes for California, the code states:
(a) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn to the left or to complete a U-turn upon a highway, or to turn left into public or private property, or an alley, shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles approaching from the opposite direction which are close enough to constitute a hazard at any time during the turning movement, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to the approaching vehicles until the left turn or U-turn can be made with reasonable safety.​

 

[gottagofast]

it'll beep. then you have seconds to present torque to the wheel. Then it'll SCREAM and show you a dirty picture, then you're done.

I wish there was another way to let it know you are there because there’s a fine line between apply force to the wheel for nag and disengaging FSD

I would get the blue flash sometimes, apply force to the wheel and it keeps flashing then I would apply more force and disengage it on accident

 

[FSDtester#1]

I wish there was another way to let it know you are there because there’s a fine line between apply force to the wheel for nag and disengaging FSD

I would get the blue flash sometimes, apply force to the wheel and it keeps flashing then I would apply more force and disengage it on accident

On v11 you can still change music volume or use speed up or down to satisfy the nag. Word is on v12 that's gone.

@AlanSubie4Life has mastered the art of satisfying nags without disengagements, read some of his tips.

 

[lzolman]

I wish there was another way to let it know you are there because there’s a fine line between apply force to the wheel for nag and disengaging FSD

Indeed. And getting finer by the day. I've had two accidental disengagements just trying to get the nag to stop nagging. And I was very gently ratcheting up the torque... (V11).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The quote you posted says "Approach for a left turn shall be made in that portion of the right half of the roadway nearest the center line"

You should read 257.650 of the Michigan Vehicle Code. It pertains to right-of-way, specifically for left turns.
257.650 Right-of-way; turning left at intersection; violation as civil infraction.

Sec. 650.

(1) The driver of a vehicle within an intersection intending to turn to the left shall yield the right of way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard

I checked MN, WI, and MI, and all three states say that when turning left, you must turn into the left-most lane. When turning right, you must turn into the right-most lane.
Then in other sections of the code pertaining to right-of-way, all three states say that a driver turning left must yield the right-of-way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard.

You should check both the laws for turning left AND the right-of-way laws, because rules for left/right turns are in a different part of the code than right-of-way rules.


According to California Vehicle Code...

VEHICLE CODE - VEH​

DIVISION 11. RULES OF THE ROAD [21000 - 23336]​

( Division 11 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

​

CHAPTER 6. Turning and Stopping and Turning Signals [22100 - 22113]​

( Chapter 6 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

​

22100.​

Except as provided in Section 22100.5 or 22101, the driver of any vehicle intending to turn upon a highway shall do so as follows:

(a) Right Turns. Both the approach for a right-hand turn and a right-hand turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except:

(1) Upon a highway having three marked lanes for traffic moving in one direction that terminates at an intersecting highway accommodating traffic in both directions, the driver of a vehicle in the middle lane may turn right into any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered.

(2) If a right-hand turn is made from a one-way highway at an intersection, a driver shall approach the turn as provided in this subdivision and shall complete the turn in any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered.

(3) Upon a highway having an additional lane or lanes marked for a right turn by appropriate signs or markings, the driver of a vehicle may turn right from any lane designated and marked for that turning movement.

(b) Left Turns. The approach for a left turn shall be made as close as practicable to the left-hand edge of the extreme left-hand lane or portion of the roadway lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of the vehicle and, when turning at an intersection, the left turn shall not be made before entering the intersection.

So far as right-of-way goes for California, the code states:
(a) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn to the left or to complete a U-turn upon a highway, or to turn left into public or private property, or an alley, shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles approaching from the opposite direction which are close enough to constitute a hazard at any time during the turning movement, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to the approaching vehicles until the left turn or U-turn can be made with reasonable safety.​

You are correct that for right turns you need to turn into the closest lane. Then move over. Often it is a bit hard to distinguish this movement as a turn into the rightmost lane is pretty easy, and you’d move over immediately thereafter. Not sure what FSD did but probably it was legal. It’s not clear what to do if you have to immediately get over four lanes for example - the law presumably would say that is fine.

For left turns it is any lane. (With obvious exceptions.)

EDIT: some people are apparently missing the obvious context here: the above is for California.

 

[FSDtester#1]

Indeed. And getting finer by the day. I've had two accidental disengagements just trying to get the nag to stop nagging. And I was very gently ratcheting up the torque... (V11).

Happens even to me once in a while, and I am the #1 fsd tester worldwide
Lmao

 

[sleepydoc]

No. They cannot be upgraded.

And here’s the problem for Tesla - when they sold cars with FSD they said the cars have all the hardware necessary and the cars would receive a software update when available. Now there was at least a feasible legal argument that they were working on the software. If the software is available and the hardware is insufficient then Tesla is potentially open to a lawsuit for misrepresenting the capabilities of the hardware.

 

[gottagofast]

Happens even to me once in a while, and I am the #1 fsd tester worldwide
Lmao

I don’t understand why the camera looking at a persons face isn’t enough

 

[FSDtester#1]

And here’s the problem for Tesla - when they sold cars with FSD they said the cars have all the hardware necessary and the cars would receive a software update when available. Now there was at least a feasible legal argument that they were working on the software. If the software is available and the hardware is insufficient then Tesla is potentially open to a lawsuit for misrepresenting the capabilities of the hardware.

Agreed and this has been a heated debate for years, so if you aren't happy, lawyer up.
But please, no tears emojis!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I wish there was another way to let it know you are there because there’s a fine line between apply force to the wheel for nag and disengaging FSD

I would get the blue flash sometimes, apply force to the wheel and it keeps flashing then I would apply more force and disengage it on accident

Just practice. Remember it sometimes wants opposite torque.

If you just leave BOTH your hands on the wheel and drive normally with some normal hand weight on the wheel at 9 and 3, making no effort to torque one particular direction except in case of hazards where you want to be sure of no movement in a particular direction, you’ll rarely get any torque-wheel request.

Very occasionally it seems to get into a mode where even high torque does not satisfy it. Seems like a bug - it does not happen often.

 

[gottagofast]

If hw3 can’t be replaced with hw4 maybe they will make it so hw5 can replace hw3, if it’s just a simple wiring connection issue

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don’t understand why the camera looking at a persons face isn’t enough

Because you might not have your hands on the wheel. They can see whether you do from the camera (it cannot see the wheel or your hands however), but due to limitations (no direct 100% certain visual check) there, they occasionally do a check if not sure. Fairly sure keeping hands on the wheel without torque reduces nag frequency but not sure about that - need to actually test, and I do think applying occasional very light torque reduces frequency even further.

The system is really quite excellent now and rarely does any nagging as long as you keep eyes on the road and two hands on the wheel. It will also nag regardless, in low-confidence situations - this is excellent, as it often encourages disengagement.

Anyway, back to v12 discussion.

 

[gottagofast]

Because you might not have your hands on the wheel. They can see whether you do from the camera (it cannot see the wheel or your hands however), but due to limitations there they occasionally do a check if not sure.

The system is really quite excellent now and rarely does any nagging as long as you keep eyes on the road and two hands on the wheel. It will also nag regardless, in low-confidence situations - this is excellent, as it often encourages disengagement.

I don’t seem to get any nags in slow traffic, there must be a certain speed cap where nags start

 

[sleepydoc]

You are correct that for right turns you need to turn into the closest lane. Then move over. Often it is a bit hard to distinguish this movement as a turn into the rightmost lane is pretty easy, and you’d move over immediately thereafter. Not sure what FSD did but probably it was legal. It’s not clear what to do if you have to immediately get over four lanes for example - the law presumably would say that is fine.

For left turns it is any lane.

In MN left turns need to enter the closest lane (I.e. you can’t make a ‘wide’ left turn into the far lane in the destination road)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

In MN left turns need to enter the closest lane (I.e. you can’t make a ‘wide’ left turn into the far lane in the destination road)

I am clearly talking specifically about California. No ambiguity in above post.

I’m well aware that that is an awesome feature of driving in California. Other states (like OR) with restrictions are kind of annoying; you can’t whip around corners as fast or get in the correct lane without silly lane changes. As a driver turning right you have to watch for people using this awesome feature, of course. That is the cost.

 

[dtdtdt]

Just practice. Remember it sometimes wants opposite torque.

If you just leave BOTH your hands on the wheel and drive normally with some normal hand weight on the wheel at 9 and 3, making no effort to torque one particular direction except in case of hazards where you want to be sure of no movement in a particular direction, you’ll rarely get any torque-wheel request.

Very occasionally it seems to get into a mode where even high torque does not satisfy it. Seems like a bug - it does not happen often.

My observation is that it sometimes/often takes a long time to acknowledge a change in torque. More precisely, it sees the change in torque right away, but doesn’t cancel the blue pulsing until sometime later. So, you think the car didn’t notice your response and you try harder or in a different direction, but the pulsing stays there. Kind of like a remote video game with terrible lag.

 

[willow_hiller]

fwiw Teslascope is expecting something this weekend:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1763309347239776331

 

[JulienW]

fwiw......

Not a lot since it is is easy to guess a 50-50.

Yea so it is:

• New version this weekend
• Expanded (continued) Rollout
• New version later but on a 24 branch

That almost coves all.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don’t seem to get any nags in slow traffic, there must be a certain speed cap where nags start

Yeah you can still get them but I think it is reduced requirements.

Anyway we know v12 excitement must be winding down and we are getting to steady state asymptotic v12 performance if we are back to talking about nags.

Hopefully more will be able to enjoy it in its near final state this weekend.