This SHOULD be way it is but for some strange (aka: Tesla) reason it is actually FSD(S). Supervised sounds clumsy at the rear and why the parentheses????
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd hard and late braking fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
What does simulated data have to do with the way the system handles input? Every situation needs handled.
If used to train NN, the system is NN. If the system is hand coded, the simulations represent more test cases to write for or train upstream NN to properly classify.
Yesterday, I had the first not-so-good experience with v12.3.3.
It was around 8pm, so it wasn't completely dark, but visibility was not great, so maybe that's the reason.
Bad:
- Turning right into a faster road, it hesitated much longer than usual, and even got a flash from the incoming car, so I just floored into the road, since I was already partially turning.
- Almost missed one red light! I had to give it some help. Hasn't happened for a long time for me, in any versions.
It did all happen on April 1st. Hopefully this was not a joke on me!
Good:
- Auto-speed with 25% offset continues to work well for me. Most of the time, it is close to the speed I set (hence higher than posted speed) except in one road where it is significantly below posted speed. Not sure why but it is consistent.
- On a 4-lane road, a car in front of me decided to turn left into a mall by signalling left and my car detected this before me, signalled right and switched to the right lane gracefully. Couldn't have done it better myself.
It was around 8pm, so it wasn't completely dark, but visibility was not great, so maybe that's the reason.
Bad:
- Turning right into a faster road, it hesitated much longer than usual, and even got a flash from the incoming car, so I just floored into the road, since I was already partially turning.
- Almost missed one red light! I had to give it some help. Hasn't happened for a long time for me, in any versions.
It did all happen on April 1st. Hopefully this was not a joke on me!
Good:
- Auto-speed with 25% offset continues to work well for me. Most of the time, it is close to the speed I set (hence higher than posted speed) except in one road where it is significantly below posted speed. Not sure why but it is consistent.
- On a 4-lane road, a car in front of me decided to turn left into a mall by signalling left and my car detected this before me, signalled right and switched to the right lane gracefully. Couldn't have done it better myself.
Pdubs
Ingesting large quantities of LSD
jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
You stated that the number of situations encountered via video clips from the cars was not sufficient to cover all possible real word scenarios. My point is that video information is augmented by simulations to increase the possible scenarios that are encountered.
I don't think I did though. If I did, it was unintentional as I agree simulations can add variation to the data set. And collecting the imput data is distinct from handling the data.
These sections assumed one had infinite data available:
Tried it a second time this morning. Still had to disengage about once per minute. Pre-translated into American for you guys:
1) Incorrect lane positioning. Tried to go into the bus lane / right turn only lane a couple of times, or it would drift into the parking lane which is full of rocks and other crap. This is a piss-off-other drivers sort of thing, so is a safety issue in my view.
2) Doesn't smoothly choose a speed. Accelerates too hard, overshoots, then immediately starts slowing down. On certain roads, will still travel too fast if you use auto max. This morning drive was on roads where on most segments, going at or over 25mph is being an a-hole, and only a few segments can you go up to 30 - 35mph safely. There are schools on many of the different possible routes. Also a safety issue in my view.
3) Can't seem to find an appropriate speed to brake to stop to a stop sign. This is mostly not a safety issue, but is annoying.
* Google's preferred route has me passing through 17 stop signs and 3 lights over 2 miles. All of Google's routes pass by busy schools. Imagine doing 17 annoying stops over 2 miles and also passing by busy schools with lots of kids, crossing guards and school buses. Also, part of the route goes over the surface of the moon. Not a good idea.
* My own custom route has 7 stops and 10 lights and doesn't pass by any schools, but the car never shows it as an option. I tried doing FSD without navigation but it stubbornly turned off my turn signals each time I tried to turn, so I used the navigation with an extra pin dropped.
What it should be doing for stops:
a) Quickly start decelerating to the rate which will lead to the car reaching the stop line at a constant rate of deceleration.
b) Hold that rate of deceleration until close to the stop line, then slow down the acceleration when about 20 feet from the stop line.
c) Continue decreasing the deceleration so that you reach the stop line with zero jerk -- i.e., you can't even really perceive the point at which the car stops moving. To make it really smooth, don't actually lock the wheels but always stay moving at around 1-2mph ( I know that FSD is not allowed to do this because "reasons", but this is the only way to be smooth).
I find manually driving a Tesla is actually a lot easier to do this than in automatic gas cars which are always fighting you. My stops are usually butter-smooth. However, FSD drives more like those automatic gas cars with the rough stops.
This sort of calculus is the sort of thing a computer can calculate faster than a human, so it seems to be some sort of NN control issue.
What it should be doing for speed is:
a) If the road is narrow with parked cars and is clearly residential, the car should not be travelling above 20mph. Around here at least, most roads like this are already posted at that limit.
b) If the road is wide and in a more open area with lots of visibility, then it's safe to go faster. Under no circumstances should it pass 30mph on its own (due to possible police presence), or ever touch 25mph near a school.
The car doesn't do this right now. I guess auto max is intended to solve this problem but it goes way too fast on the residential streets. There's no way it would be able to stop for someone coming out from between parked cars or opening a car door, or even someone shooting through their stop from a side street. This sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME so the car has to drive at an appropriate speed. Sadly, some human drivers don't do this either, but FSD is supposed to be better.
I haven't yet been able to test how it will behave if a school bus sticks out its stop sign. Usually, but not always, you get about 10 seconds warning with flashing yellow lights. That's a nasty ticket around here, so you want to be extra vigilant for that even though a lot of people aren't.
One last note: It was mildly foggy this morning and I was getting dry wipes, but when turning off the wipers, FSD would complain with a "beep beep beep: FSD is degraded" every 20 seconds. You could see about 1000 feet down the road at least so this was quite annoying.
Will continue testing and reporting issues to Tesla.
1) Incorrect lane positioning. Tried to go into the bus lane / right turn only lane a couple of times, or it would drift into the parking lane which is full of rocks and other crap. This is a piss-off-other drivers sort of thing, so is a safety issue in my view.
2) Doesn't smoothly choose a speed. Accelerates too hard, overshoots, then immediately starts slowing down. On certain roads, will still travel too fast if you use auto max. This morning drive was on roads where on most segments, going at or over 25mph is being an a-hole, and only a few segments can you go up to 30 - 35mph safely. There are schools on many of the different possible routes. Also a safety issue in my view.
3) Can't seem to find an appropriate speed to brake to stop to a stop sign. This is mostly not a safety issue, but is annoying.
* Google's preferred route has me passing through 17 stop signs and 3 lights over 2 miles. All of Google's routes pass by busy schools. Imagine doing 17 annoying stops over 2 miles and also passing by busy schools with lots of kids, crossing guards and school buses. Also, part of the route goes over the surface of the moon. Not a good idea.
* My own custom route has 7 stops and 10 lights and doesn't pass by any schools, but the car never shows it as an option. I tried doing FSD without navigation but it stubbornly turned off my turn signals each time I tried to turn, so I used the navigation with an extra pin dropped.
What it should be doing for stops:
a) Quickly start decelerating to the rate which will lead to the car reaching the stop line at a constant rate of deceleration.
b) Hold that rate of deceleration until close to the stop line, then slow down the acceleration when about 20 feet from the stop line.
c) Continue decreasing the deceleration so that you reach the stop line with zero jerk -- i.e., you can't even really perceive the point at which the car stops moving. To make it really smooth, don't actually lock the wheels but always stay moving at around 1-2mph ( I know that FSD is not allowed to do this because "reasons", but this is the only way to be smooth).
I find manually driving a Tesla is actually a lot easier to do this than in automatic gas cars which are always fighting you. My stops are usually butter-smooth. However, FSD drives more like those automatic gas cars with the rough stops.
This sort of calculus is the sort of thing a computer can calculate faster than a human, so it seems to be some sort of NN control issue.
What it should be doing for speed is:
a) If the road is narrow with parked cars and is clearly residential, the car should not be travelling above 20mph. Around here at least, most roads like this are already posted at that limit.
b) If the road is wide and in a more open area with lots of visibility, then it's safe to go faster. Under no circumstances should it pass 30mph on its own (due to possible police presence), or ever touch 25mph near a school.
The car doesn't do this right now. I guess auto max is intended to solve this problem but it goes way too fast on the residential streets. There's no way it would be able to stop for someone coming out from between parked cars or opening a car door, or even someone shooting through their stop from a side street. This sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME so the car has to drive at an appropriate speed. Sadly, some human drivers don't do this either, but FSD is supposed to be better.
I haven't yet been able to test how it will behave if a school bus sticks out its stop sign. Usually, but not always, you get about 10 seconds warning with flashing yellow lights. That's a nasty ticket around here, so you want to be extra vigilant for that even though a lot of people aren't.
One last note: It was mildly foggy this morning and I was getting dry wipes, but when turning off the wipers, FSD would complain with a "beep beep beep: FSD is degraded" every 20 seconds. You could see about 1000 feet down the road at least so this was quite annoying.
Will continue testing and reporting issues to Tesla.
I have 12.3.3 partly downloaded on my way to work. I wish they'd let us download FSD via cellular. Lord knows I paid enough for it, after all.
I don't even live in CA (any more), but SFSD sounds like it's only good on trips from San Fran to San Diego.
V12.3 ran a red light this morning, luckily no one was around. I cancelled the FSD after crossing the intersection but it didn't ask me for feedback, it probably realized it fcked up lol. Is there a way to report a problem with FSD without using the brake or cancel command?
We have on ramp lights that cycles between Green, Yellow, Red quickly. FSD seems to get stuck since it cycled back to Red before it can completely go pass the light.
FSD doesn't understand the flow of traffic and need to switch lanes earlier. During heavy traffic it needs to switch lanes to the exit lane way before 0.5 miles away. It's cutting people off like an a--hole.
We have on ramp lights that cycles between Green, Yellow, Red quickly. FSD seems to get stuck since it cycled back to Red before it can completely go pass the light.
FSD doesn't understand the flow of traffic and need to switch lanes earlier. During heavy traffic it needs to switch lanes to the exit lane way before 0.5 miles away. It's cutting people off like an a--hole.
Third drive this morning: well, it was like night and day. The thing actually drove quite well and even chose appropriate speeds, and didn’t take off from lights like it was in a street race.
It handled a dog-leg (which is actually a triangle, but shows up as a dog leg on the map) quite well. It was a little confused by flashing green, which is how priority is indicated around here.
It drove straight through a powered-off light, which is technically illegal but I was fine with it since it was perfectly safe, and there were cars behind me ready to do the same. I didn’t want to brake check them. It even drove around the sewer plates this time.
Still the annoying beeping warning about fsd being degraded when it saw even the slightest hint of fog. Also nagged me once when my hands were clearly on the wheel.
I think the difference is what other people have noted: having other traffic around helps a lot. I drove on a main road with lots of traffic and one lane per side. I was mostly not the lead car and had someone to follow, and it had no chance to stupidly change lanes since the parking lane was always occupied.
It handled a dog-leg (which is actually a triangle, but shows up as a dog leg on the map) quite well. It was a little confused by flashing green, which is how priority is indicated around here.
It drove straight through a powered-off light, which is technically illegal but I was fine with it since it was perfectly safe, and there were cars behind me ready to do the same. I didn’t want to brake check them. It even drove around the sewer plates this time.
Still the annoying beeping warning about fsd being degraded when it saw even the slightest hint of fog. Also nagged me once when my hands were clearly on the wheel.
I think the difference is what other people have noted: having other traffic around helps a lot. I drove on a main road with lots of traffic and one lane per side. I was mostly not the lead car and had someone to follow, and it had no chance to stupidly change lanes since the parking lane was always occupied.
PianoAl
Active Member
v12.3.3 drive yesterday:
2 trips in the morning worked fine.
The trip in the evening was not good:
1. Car moved to the lane to go freeway 15 south instead of continue to go straight to go 15 north 0.1 mile ahead.
2. Car made unnecessary lane changing even when Minimal Lane Change was set.
This is a regression.
2 trips in the morning worked fine.
The trip in the evening was not good:
1. Car moved to the lane to go freeway 15 south instead of continue to go straight to go 15 north 0.1 mile ahead.
2. Car made unnecessary lane changing even when Minimal Lane Change was set.
This is a regression.
PianoAl
Active Member
I also notice a lot of variation from one drive to the next, but even with no other cars around.
A clear example is lane drift at a particular location. Current score:
Total lane drift into wrong (right turn only lane): 2
No lane drift: 4
Halfway into wrong lane: 1
One quarter into wrong lane: 1
V12.3.
I also use auto max speed and my offset is 7mph. The car behaves according to the settings.
On 30 mph street, it went up to 37 mph without pedal acceleration.
On higher speed limit streets sometimes it needed manual acceleration.
On 40 mph, it went up to 47 mph.
On 50 mph, it went up to 57 mph.
Pdubs
Ingesting large quantities of LSD
I’m not sad anymore about being left behind.
On another note, 12.3 was weird yesterday and I think I figured out why it was hugging the left lines, (white or yellow), and taking left turns short. Yesterday I g had it in Chill Mode, today I put it back to assertive and it was just fine. Until this morning, I noticed no discernible difference. I’m sure it was probably other factors influencing it, but I’ll know later today.
I always use Chill mode and don't bother to try the other modes because it is useful to me.I’m not sad anymore about being left behind.
On another note, 12.3 was weird yesterday and I think I figured out why it was hugging the left lines, (white or yellow), and taking left turns short. Yesterday I g had it in Chill Mode, today I put it back to assertive and it was just fine. Until this morning, I noticed no discernible difference. I’m sure it was probably other factors influencing it, but I’ll know later today.
Some post on X saying if you're car is not on 12.3.3 then you can ask Tesla service push for you. Not sure that is true.
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