FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[EVNow]

Couple of interesting things happened today.

First I had a near accident. For once, it wasn't FSD trying to rush into roundabout when another car was coming. Some driver next to me on the left lane realized late that he needed to turn right and without looking tried to change lanes. He was a little behind me - so may be didn't notice my car. In anycase a honk and quick evasive move saved the day.

Second on an empty street - that I take atleast a couple times a week - FSD suddenly slammed on the brake. May be it saw a shadow (kind of newish around here, now that we are into spring).

One nice thing about v12 is that on new roads with wrong speed limit (50 mph on a residential road with no lines !), FSD goes slow and cautiously. Earlier I had to disengage since moving from 50 to 25 would take time .... and there was a lot of construction activity to let the car speed up even for 100 ft.

 

[nikolajz1]

Really starting to get sick of V12 ignoring user input on speed and minimal lane changes. I fear we are going to keep losing control over FSD in pursuit of autonomy that is 5+years away. So many disengagements and interventions on V12 because of this compared to V11.

 

[Dewg]

Really starting to get sick of V12 ignoring user input on speed and minimal lane changes. I fear we are going to keep losing control over FSD in pursuit of autonomy that is 5+years away. So many disengagements and interventions on V12 because of this compared to V11.

When the ADAS system is hard coded, there are a lot of possibilities for control. I think with E2E the guardrails are much harder to put in. They can start adding hard code after the NN control output, which has higher compute requirements, and can lead to more edge cases.

I'm not a huge fan of the issues you mentioned, but I can understand why it's working the way it is.

 

[Resist]

I'm assuming that you're assuming the free trial was only to get subscribers. There's another benefit .... thousands (maybe more) of more miles of data input.

Tesla really doesn't need to give out free trials for more FSD data. The free trial was solely to get people interested enough to buy or subscribe to FSD.

 

[drtimhill]

The important question to me is, does it EVER hard brake unnecessarily with someone dangerously close behind? At least since V12? Like, has anyone here had that happen?

A very good question. In all the time that people were anxious about PB (and reporting many events), I dont recall anyone actually saying they had been rear ended as a result.

 

[drtimhill]

When the ADAS system is hard coded, there are a lot of possibilities for control. I think with E2E the guardrails are much harder to put in. They can start adding hard code after the NN control output, which has higher compute requirements, and can lead to more edge cases.

I'm not a huge fan of the issues you mentioned, but I can understand why it's working the way it is.

The "preferences"(like Chill mode etc) typically become inputs to the NN, with appropriate training data for each mode, though this can be expensive if there are many such settings (one reason Tesla keep them simple).

Dont forget the NN doesnt just get camera data .. it also get map info, accelerometer, GPS, compass etc.

 

[primedive]

This is why I always turn on Minimal Lane Changes.
And why I'm pi$$ed at having to do it manually EVERY STINKIN' DRIVE.

Tried it without that setting and same experience — going into leftmost lane when we need to exit soon. I would normally just disengage but wanted to see what it would do. Also probably annoyed a van as I was mildly tailgated going back to the right lane.

About motion sickness, it’s interesting how different people react differently to this. The youngest is susceptible and I find the Model Y’s stiff harsh ride is actually good because there’s little body roll. He does a lot worse in most ICE cars unless they have tight suspension also. Repetitive concrete joints used to cause a bucking action until I had it fixed by service; now it’s only on the worst roads and if -20° or below. That said, I think the way FSD drives is definitely more prone to causing motion sickness and I usually try to be more smooth than that.

Something interesting in a drive today — a city bus was stopped and angled toward the right because of parked cars, and it looked like it was stopped for passengers but it wasn’t really possible to tell. FSD started to move around the bus across the yellow line, sooner than I would have but I was considering it, too. It barely got 1 foot over before it went back behind the bus. There was no opposing traffic but there were cars in front of the bus. I don’t know if it was actually able to see those cars but it’s possible. Sometimes it does impressive moves like this, hopefully soon it can get smarter about lane selection and avoiding tire killers.

 

[drtimhill]

If you're a chump. I try to pay the lowest price at which the seller is willing to sell.

But that IS the value you perceive. Sure, you try to negotiate, but if the seller wont budge and you do not see the value at that price, you dont buy.

 

[cyborgLIS]

But that's because the purchaser of said computer would also have to buy Windows if it wasn't included. But Tesla dont have to buy anything from anyone to add FSD to a car. And so it would be with Microsoft, why would they pay extra money to buy a computer with Windows on it?

When you are buying something, you are paying for the value you, as a purchaser, perceive. It doesnt matter to you what the SELLER perceives as value. There is zero value to Tesla to spend extra $$$ to buy FSD from you, since the manufacturing cost for them to add it to the car after purchase is zero.

Can anyone confirm that Tesla actually will not value FSD in your trade-in offer? Because they do seem to resell FSD cars for higher prices.

Either way, the original statement was that FSD has no trade-in value because it is software. Actually it has just as much value to the 2nd owner as the first owner, minus the remaining life of the car. The problem is that while our niche might find FSD to be worth the price, most people do not. Whether Tesla chooses to value the original owner's FSD in the offer price is a market issue.

They could just as well do this with hardware. They could make identical trade-in offers for M3SR and M3P. That wouldn't fly because owners could easily find better offers for their M3P elsewhere. The same cannot be said for their FSD. The fact that FSD is software is not what's limiting its trade-in value. It's that it's not all that valuable in general. And the fact that Tesla would not value it at trade-in ironically confrms this.

 

[primedive]

Another interesting note, is that fsd does seem to depend on lead cars for better or worse. On a 4 lane one way road where left and right are turn only, going into a two lane one way across an intersection, first it was going to use the right turn only lane but I cancelled that, then it followed the lead cars who drifted from the right thru lane to the left across the intersection.

In fairness the turn lanes were not marked (just common sense since driving straight would drive you into a building), no markings across the intersection and the 2 lane portion had zero markings of any kind. Good testing grounds for FSD.

 

[drtimhill]

About motion sickness, it’s interesting how different people react differently to this. The youngest is susceptible and I find the Model Y’s stiff harsh ride is actually good because there’s little body roll. He does a lot worse in most ICE cars unless they have tight suspension also. Repetitive concrete joints used to cause a bucking action until I had it fixed by service; now it’s only on the worst roads and if -20° or below. That said, I think the way FSD drives is definitely more prone to causing motion sickness and I usually try to be more smooth than that.

Does he look inside the car (e.g. at a screen) or outside? When I was young I had bad motion sickness and it was always caused by looking down at (e.g.) a book etc.

 

[Dewg]

The "preferences"(like Chill mode etc) typically become inputs to the NN, with appropriate training data for each mode, though this can be expensive if there are many such settings (one reason Tesla keep them simple).

Dont forget the NN doesnt just get camera data .. it also get map info, accelerometer, GPS, compass etc.

Exactly. Training 3 NNs would be challenging. Each mode could have different driving styles, and could make it tough to predict as a driver. You get used to how the car approaches and handles a right turn on red/stop, and then it's different in another mode, even if slightly.

 

[primedive]

Does he look inside the car (e.g. at a screen) or outside? When I was young I had bad motion sickness and it was always caused by looking down at (e.g.) a book etc.

No books or screens but he is just susceptible… I once had to travel internationally with toddler puke all over myself and no change of clothes (I had for him, but I was the one that needed new clothes! ). He’s also puked in every car but never in the Tesla. It’s getting better as he gets older, thankfully.

 

[drtimhill]

Either way, the original statement was that FSD has no trade-in value because it is software. Actually it has just as much value to the 2nd owner as the first owner, minus the remaining life of the car. The problem is that while our niche might find FSD to be worth the price, most people do not. Whether Tesla chooses to value the original owner's FSD in the offer price is a market issue.

No, the point is that the value is different depending on the buyers perspective and interest. I might value FSD very highly, and think I can get extra $$$ for it when I sell, but if a buyer never wants to go near FSD, he will not feel the FSD premium is worth it. For TESLA, as the "buyer" in a trade-in deal, the value of FSD is zero, since they can "add" FSD to any trade-in car after purchase for zero cost .. why would they pay (say) $1000 extra for a car with FSD when they can add it themselves for $0 ?

I realize that people WANT Tesla to pay $$$ for FSD since they themselves paid for it .. but from a pure free market perspective there is no financial reason for Tesla to do so.

 

[petercc9]

This guy in NYC in heavy traffic

FSD V12 handles nightmare road conditions! Catch the big show on Fifth Avenue in New York, 30 minutes, 0 intervention

Remember everybody V12 "nowhere close to being ready" for robotaxis...

BTW what's up with all the bicycle rickshas...and no I'm not Chinese

 

[drtimhill]

No books or screens but he is just susceptible… I once had to travel internationally with toddler puke all over myself and no change of clothes (I had for him, but I was the one that needed new clothes! ). He’s also puked in every car but never in the Tesla. It’s getting better as he gets older, thankfully.

Yeah that all sounds familiar .. as you note it's something that they usually grow out of (just about the time they grow into all the other things you were fearing!!).

 

[lzolman]

Does he look inside the car (e.g. at a screen) or outside? When I was young I had bad motion sickness and it was always caused by looking down at (e.g.) a book etc.

Yes, focusing out of the vehicle at some distant stationary object works, and as soon as possible after you realize you're not feeling so hot. I spent my childhood not doing well in cars and my parents just gave me dramamine. Funny thing is when I first tracked a car, I didn't understand why I was getting sick. The first few times actually. I'm a slow learner. Since I'd already solved the problem for while scuba diving (Scopalomine patches), I started wearing the patches to the track. Helped a lot. But ultimately I don't like the wear-and-tear on my car from tracking. My motorcycle instructor has been trying to talk me into doing a non-sportsbike track day for years, but I'm chicken. Of getting sick, not of the riding part.

Do you guys know why some people get motion sickness? Maybe the physicians here can correct me if the story is apocryphal, but I believe it: the vestibular system in the inner ear is really sensitive to chemical imbalances, so we've evolved such that if we were to ingest a poison (bad berries or mushrooms or whatever), the inner ear reacts first and thus such a reaction triggers a reflex to "purge the poison". The body is being fooled into thinking it's been poisoned.

 

[lzolman]

Tried it without that setting and same experience — going into leftmost lane when we need to exit soon. I would normally just disengage but wanted to see what it would do. Also probably annoyed a van as I was mildly tailgated going back to the right lane.

For me, Minimal Lane Changes turned on actually works. I curse myself when I forget to turn it on. One out of 4 or 5 initial elective lane changes it makes actually come close to the way I drive. Meaning 4 out of 5 times I forget to turn on the switch, I regret it.

About motion sickness, it’s interesting how different people react differently to this. The youngest is susceptible and I find the Model Y’s stiff harsh ride is actually good because there’s little body roll. He does a lot worse in most ICE cars unless they have tight suspension also. Repetitive concrete joints used to cause a bucking action until I had it fixed by service; now it’s only on the worst roads and if -20° or below. That said, I think the way FSD drives is definitely more prone to causing motion sickness and I usually try to be more smooth than that.

I've only ever been able to drive cars with stiff suspensions. My dad asked me once if there were something wrong with my springs, lol. I think that was my Prelude SH.

 

[drtimhill]

Do you guys know why some people get motion sickness? Maybe the physicians here can correct me if the story is apocryphal, but I believe it: the vestibular system in the inner ear is really sensitive to chemical imbalances, so we've evolved such that if we were to ingest a poison (bad berries or mushrooms or whatever), the inner ear reacts first and thus such a reaction triggers a reflex to "purge the poison". The body is being fooled into thinking it's been poisoned.

Yes, it's' more or less this. Many poisons can affect the brain, and in particular cause its tracking between (say) balance and the visual system to get out of sync. The best survival response is to get rid of the poison, hence vomiting. So it's not the ear per se, but the brains interpretation of different sensory inputs. That's why you get sea sick ..your ear is telling the brain one thing and your eyes another. Same for too much alcohol. Kids are more susceptible as they are less tolerant (another survival thing).

So when you look down in a car, the car body and (e.g.) book is telling you that you are stationary, but your ear says you are swinging around, and yeah you get sick. The best mitigation is to look out the window AHEAD of you, so you "see" the same thing your ears are telling you. Same thing for sea sickness, get on deck and look toward the bow of the boat at the horizon.

 

[Todd Burch]

It's welcomed but I don't have high hope. Like other previous v12.x it was tested by employees in only less than 3 days. I will not be happy if it does not fix at least 3 dangerous bugs.

I’ve said this before but I continue to be ignored in general so I’ll continue to say it:

A 0.0.x release from 12.3.4 to 12.3.5 is a maintenance release. It is unlikely to have fixes that you will notice. It will be the same neural network. Maybe, if you’re lucky, you’ll see some fix to something. But for most of us, we’ll see no change yet imagine that it’s a whole newly-trained neural network.

We all need to dial back the excitement and expectation for these maintenance releases. They are very minor changes.

The things we will really notice will come with minor or major version upgrades…12.3 to 12.4 for example.

Hate to be Debbie Downer but it’s important to keep expectations in check as it minimizes the annoying whining I have to wade through in this thread