Has anyone heard of a Tesla being rear ended because of phantom braking?

[zoomer0056]

Yes - she loves the car, but is quite sceptic on using the cruise

For me too. TACC braked for a cyclist riding safely on side of road, braked for car parked safely off the road. At first I thought it was my job to anticipate these scenarios. But it was putting more stress on me in the form of tension waiting to counteract or anticipate a bad AP move. It is more enjoyable to drive my car by myself. I am a much better driver without AP. When I see another Tesla I give it plenty of room.

As I write this I realize that AP (TACC and Autosteer) is not for surface streets but for controlled access highways. The scenarios I experienced as noted above were not on a highway. People can use this tool incorrectly.

 

[Konicom04]

For me too. TACC braked for a cyclist riding safely on side of road, braked for car parked safely off the road. At first I thought it was my job to anticipate these scenarios. But it was putting more stress on me in the form of tension waiting to counteract or anticipate a bad AP move. It is more enjoyable to drive my car by myself. I am a much better driver without AP. When I see another Tesla I give it plenty of room.

As I write this I realize that AP (TACC and Autosteer) is not for surface streets but for controlled access highways. The scenarios I experienced as noted above were not on a highway. People can use this tool incorrectly.

My experience was each on the controlled access highway. Ironically - both my incidents were at night on a Florida highway.
My wife's incident happened on an intrastate 4 lane highway, were it "saw" a truck parked on the right side of the road while navigating through a long left hand bend

 

[nvx1977]

Phantom braking is unsettling and seems like it could cause a rear ending incident but I've yet to hear of a single case where this has happened. Out of the millions of miles that Teslas have driven with automation, there should be multiple reports of accidents if this were truly a problem. Could it be that it's not as dangerous as it appears? Perhaps the car takes into account the car behind before it decides to brake and doesn't do so if the rear car is too close.

BTW: I know about the 6 car pileup last Thanksgiving in the SF Bay Bridge tunnel. A Tesla changed lanes in front of a fast moving vehicle and then slows to a stop, causing the accident. The driver blamed FSD but Teslas use AP on that bridge, not FSD, so that's not possible. Also phantom braking incidents don't stop the car, they only retard the speed temporarily then continue at full speed. The full report of this incident has not been released and the driver's report is verifiably erroneous so phantom braking may not be the issue.

It happens here over and over again; what people perceive to be dangerous may or may not be dangerous in the real world. So we can have mile-long threads talking about the dangers of having to glance to the right for your speed instead of traditionally glancing down. Or we can talk about how incredibly dangerous the wipers are on the 3/Y because autowipers don't work all the time. Or operating a touchscreen with no tactile feedback. And of course the myriads of unwanted behavior that FSD performs here and there. All incredibly dangerous. It's like we want to write our own clickbait when we want to make a point.

Yes in theory, anything is dangerous, including glancing at the bobblehead on your dash. Whether or not it's actually dangerous in the real world really comes down to the data. You would think that if phantom braking (or whimsical hesitation) accidents were statistically significant, we would have at least seen multiple unique threads here on TMC, a place that naturally celebrates the most errant of behaviors, like a windshield flying off the car while driving.

 

[kennykustom]

honestly i'm not sure how much of an issue this still is,

It is 100% still an issue.

 

[nickkovach]

It is 100% still an issue.

Oh yeah it is.. I have a new 2023 M3RwD (no uss or radar) and my first road trip was perfect on the way there.. but on the drive back I had 3-4 incidents of phantom braking before I finally gave up and drove manually (after my wife screamed at me).

I wish there was a way to report these incidents or even review what the car was seeing or thinking. Adaptive cruise control is a must have.. sucks to have a new car that can’t handle it. Maybe it was bug guts on the camera or sunlight off the highway but there was literally nothing there.. if I knew what conditions cause this.. I could be a little more confident using those features. The features aren’t safe to use if the car doesn’t explain itself.. much like the visual display doesn’t show everything and I assume it’s not seeing things (so it needs to be fixed to give me confidence and I know if it is missing obvious obstructions).

 

[zoomer0056]

The features aren’t safe to use if the car doesn’t explain itself.

Yup, the car needs to provide more than no feed back when it brakes. Like an audible "cow ahead" or "snail on road". Silly examples but something would be better than it is now.

 

[nvx1977]

Yup, the car needs to provide more than no feed back when it brakes. Like an audible "cow ahead" or "snail on road". Silly examples but something would be better than it is now.

this now happens in v11.3 FSDb, along with the ability to report problems.

 

[sandman1330]

I’ve been very close to rear ended in Miami on the I75 during a phantom brake. I was just using TACC at the time in pretty thick traffic. I stomped on the accelerator as soon as I noticed. It caused a guy in a older truck to lock up his breaks and squeal pretty good and was very close to a collision. The guy was following pretty close so he thought I was braking checking him.
He of course pulled around me flipped the bird and drove even more aggressively after this.

Normally when I have it happen is when no one is behind me so only freaks out my passengers. Depending on the situation I’ll correct it by pressing the accelerator or see just how low it will take it before self correction.

Over the last few weeks I've had very similar a few times.

I drive a lot in rural Alberta, so it's common to have large pickups tailgating. Yesterday in particular, I had a large pickup right on my tail. Car phantom braked quite aggressively. I caught it with the accelerator, but the guy behind undoubtedly thought I was brake checking. Then the car did it again. I had to turn off cruise entirely for the rest of the trip to avoid further antagonizing the truck behind me.

If they can't fix this in a reasonable timeframe (and they clearly can't), they should at least give us the option to disable TACC. Give me a toggle to use just dumb cruise control for those days when conditions are just right to cause repeated phantom braking / slowdowns. This would also help alleviate the fairly frequent "speed reduced due to poor visibility." I don't care if TACC can't see, I can. Let me disable TACC and carry on.

Anecdotally, I wonder if the car's incorrect reading of speed limit signs increases frequency of both of these errors. On my rural roads the car is almost always missing the speed limit sign, so it thinks the limit is much lower than it is. Anyone think it might be possible that it's more prone to being more of a nanny when it thinks you're significantly speeding?

 

[Konicom04]

I have to admit - all these comments im reading here ( again - new owner of M3P) kinda freak me out.
And yet - am the first to admit I am a huge fan of Tesla - not just the car, but Musk's ideology of showing the finger to the whole automotive industry.

 

[zoomer0056]

kinda freak me out.

Yup, Autopilot is not ready for prime time.

 

[sandman1330]

I have to admit - all these comments im reading here ( again - new owner of M3P) kinda freak me out.
And yet - am the first to admit I am a huge fan of Tesla - not just the car, but Musk's ideology of showing the finger to the whole automotive industry.

I still love just about everything else about my car. I just wish FSD would stop acting like it knows better than me all the time, at least until it truly can drive itself with me riding in the back seat!

 

[Konicom04]

I still love just about everything else about my car. I just wish FSD would stop acting like it knows better than me all the time, at least until it truly can drive itself with me riding in the back seat!

yes - need to block all this forum complaining noise out of my head I really was incredibly impressed with FSD on my 3500 mile road trip, event tho it acted up a few times.

 

[Whoze]

The car did come to a stop for no reason other than the driver, who was supposed to be monitoring the car and he agreed when he selected FSD Beta, didn't control the car. That's probably why the guy took the blame.

Not saying the drivers behind were doing the right thing, obviously.

A driver is allowed to stop on a public road for whatever. The person behind should be aware of that. What if the driver's dog/ phone/ cat/ etc decides to jump/ fall and hid under the peddles? What if his steering wheel jammed? What if his car wheel fell off the car? That last one happened and the car ahead cam to a sparking stop, but I didn't run into him. Would it have been his fault if I ran into him? There are plenty of legitimate reasons to stop and resolve that situation. SO, why is everyone focused on the Tesla driver? DO you see my point?
Everyone points their finger at the Tesla, probably for ulterior motives. Even the tesla driver who posted the video, "Oh, it slowed by 3mph here!" It's almost like Munchausen Syndrome. It detracts from real safety events. Can I drive smoother and better than the Tesla? Absolutely! AP drives like a rookie driver; it changes lanes too fast, it doesn't accelerate as smoothly as me or slows down as smoothly as me, and it definitely brakes harder than me, it even follows traffic closer than me. Just about the only thing it does better than me is following slow start-stop traffic in a busy city center.
Why is everyone so hung up on AP that has demonstrated itself to be a 6 X safer driver than the rest of the USA population?? Victim blaming is such an ugly thing to see in the USA, and I thought we were better raised and educated than the rest of the world!

 

[israndy]

We are shaming THIS Tesla driver because he is making us all look bad, like those guys who get filmed looking like they are asleep and letting their car drive down the highway.

If this had never happened to anyone before, like your cat getting stuck under the accelerator, we would all be shrugging and moving on with our lives. It's just such a common thing that it's shocking anyone could let it happen to them in a crowd like that.

But that's not blaming, the guys who hit him are the ones at fault, as I said above

 

[generalmilk]

Similarly to @EVRider-FL, how can you take comfort in rationalizing that because this 8 car pile up is in the highway, so it cannot be FSD?

So, by paying $15,000 for FSD instead of free Autopilot, does that help to avoid phantom brake in this case? How much more money, $100,000, for FSD to avoid phantom brakes?

Whether a driver got a free Autopilot or a 2020 predicted future price of $100,000 FSD, the issue of phantom brakes is still there to be solved.

First, the radar was blamed so the solution would be getting rid of radar. Getting rid of radar didn't solve the phantom brakes, so now Tesla is bringing radar back this month.

Whether an owner got a free Autopilot or an expensive FSD, the foundation of hardware/software is the same: Either you are radarless in both versions or you now have radar in free Autopilot or expensive FSD.


Tesla defines phantom brakes as "slowdowns" in its release notes.

"Phantom" is like something real not there, like a ghost or a phantom limb caused by a nonexistent limb. The brakes should not slow down the car if there's nothing there.

It's "nothing" to humans but something to the system: It works by the algorithm. It brakes because it follows an algorithm, but it's still not an acceptable reason to brake: shadow on the road, mirage, overhead bridge, flashing lights...

Any slowdown is not acceptable if an average driver would not do that. If the TACC is set at 65, it should not slow down below 65 if the road is clear. The machine should obey what humans set the speed for it.



True. The full report is not done, but Tesla has quickly corrected false claims even without a PR department.

There was multiple incidents claim or suspect AP was in use during crash. One example is a model S with old couple in Florida (both died), recently just proved to have nothing to do with AP. But I don’t remember hearing Tesla correcting anything.

 

[Tam]

There was multiple incidents claim or suspect AP was in use during crash. One example is a model S with old couple in Florida (both died), recently just proved to have nothing to do with AP. But I don’t remember hearing Tesla correcting anything.

For example, the couple died around 9:07 PM Saturday, 4/17/2021 and 2 days later, Tesla was able to correct the press' speculation:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1384254194975010826

 

[apsen]

We should also ask the opposite question...how many have had a phantom braking experience...only to realize later that there was a danger but didn’t see it ?

That's the scary part. Frequent phantom braking conditions you to overriding it quickly and then what would happen during breaking for a reason?..

 

[derotam]

That's the scary part. Frequent phantom braking conditions you to overriding it quickly and then what would happen during breaking for a reason?..

It conditions you to pay attention...that attention conditioning doesn't go away if the braking is real vs a PB. I don't think there would be anyone that is going to say that they don't pay attention but since they are conditioned to override PB, that they just blindly override any and all slowdowns no matter the reason.

 

[zoomer0056]

then what would happen during breaking for a reason?.

Are you saying that deliberate braking won't happen? That now because PB has conditioned one to hit the accelerator instead of the brake that one will end up going through the stop sign instead of stopping?

 

[apsen]

It conditions you to pay attention...that attention conditioning doesn't go away if the braking is real vs a PB. I don't think there would be anyone that is going to say that they don't pay attention but since they are conditioned to override PB, that they just blindly override any and all slowdowns no matter the reason.

It conditions you not to take a second look when apparent phantom braking occurs. Just take a look at people posting about their reactions around here...

I'd rather let a phantom braking occur since the time needed to reassess the situation would not allow one to avoid said braking. Thankfully the frequency and severity of them have been reduced.