Just for fun I went back

[AnxietyRanger]

It's funny how owners both love and distrust Tesla at the same time.

Well, it is something... I am not sure I would call it funny exactly...

Well said, @AndrewTX.

 

[Sir Guacamolaf]

On the plus side, we don't need to worry about AI starting WW3 anytime soon then.

 

[oktane]

I’m a relatively new owner who is a regular here on tmc. Lately there has been so much controversy over autopilot and what the video and Elon promised it would be, that I went back to watch old videos for fun. I’ve discovered that this is not unique. I found videos on supercharging and the promise that it would be free forever, to summon “snaking” around your property to come find you. For those that have been owners since the start, I’d imagine you are desensitized to the lofty promises as I am getting now. I love the car, and would buy another, but I’m beginning to think, just like other tech, you buy for what it does today, and not what it will or will not do in the future.

Yes, because otherwise Tesla will scam you like a common criminal?

 

[oktane]

Since iIjoined the 'Tesla Family' lol! it's become clear to me how slimy and misleading the company is. Looking back the stack of misleading suggestions is getting a bit tough to stomach. Sales people dangled the supercharging fomo to get me to bite, everything about FSD is complete garbage; I don't even feel safe using AP2 EAP. The primary I reason I bought what I did when I did is because of the misleading info that gets pumped out into the public. Now I've paid for $10,000 in features that don't exist because I was mislead. If I knew the true state of the features I'd never have spent a dime and I'd have gotten the premium features instead, or not have bought a Tesla at all. Since then I can't even get a straight answer on a 60D -> 75D upgrade. I had 4 separate employees lie to me and tell me I'd get additional performance. Lying to make yet another sale. I was a huge fanboy of this company until I finally bought the car. Sure the car is nice even if it's not what I paid for (the FSD and EAP that are non-existent and I have had the car into the SC for warranty body issues) but after watching how willing Tesla is to dupe customers in the 7 months I've been an owner I don't expect I'll ever buy another one. Your analysis of their past videos makes it clear, getting accurate true information out of Tesla is like nailing jello to a wall. It's like finding out your buddy is actually a complete slime-ball, a bit heartbreaking.

Exactly. The people who disagree with your post should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Ghosty]

Scalability is value. No different than buying a mother board that has excess slots for upcoming technology that - by the time it truly hits the market - your motherboard is obsolete. But you pay extra to have that option available. Whether it is eventually put to use...that is a factor in considering when choosing. It has value. It is up to the buyer to make a decision at purchase

People aren't forced or mislead to pay extra for an addition. Promises amount to conjecture. If it isn't here now - you should be reasonable and realize that technology is ever changing.

In retrospect, 10 years ago - or maybe even just five - did any of you really imagine yourself driving a gasless car with all the technology of a Tesla?

How long does it take for the typical car manufacturer to implement new technology? Some of these guys are still using CD players!! Tesla is a company that is ahead of its time and it is slowly forcing the entire industry - globally to rethink our entire infrastructure of transportation.

Tesla is the pillar of change. The bridge to a new more technologically advanced society.

 

[Swift]

Scalability is value. No different than buying a mother board that has excess slots for upcoming technology that - by the time it truly hits the market - your motherboard is obsolete. But you pay extra to have that option available. Whether it is eventually put to use...that is a factor in considering when choosing. It has value. It is up to the buyer to make a decision at purchase

Except they didn’t leave it open ended like that or most of us wouldn’t have paid. For example, with EAP they gave a very specific date. How about this example: you ordered and paid for a new graphic card for that motherboard. It’s on backorder, but they gave you a date when you bought the motherboard. You get it a few months after that date but it’s missing features and some of your best games keep crashing. You bought that motherboard and graphics card to play those games. I think the company that sold them to you has a problem on their hands. Certainly not the customer’s fault.

 

[whitex]

Fair enough, but it goes both ways. Tesla should only be taking money for what it does today and not for features that don’t exist or are not complete (i.e. EAP, FSD).

I think when the OP said "you but for what it does today" he means don't pay for future features. I absolutely share that sentiment, hence I only paid for non-optional future features on my last Model S purchase - EAB, lane departure warning, auto-headlights, blind spot monitoring and auto-wipers. Still waiting for the last one, and BSM only works at AP1 level (which is at best 50% accurate) not using the the side cameras as promised. I will pay for EAP+FSD as soon as the car can drop me off at work, go park at home, then come pick me up after work, which according to Elon will be sooner than everyone thinks.

 

[whitex]

I think Elon only has good intentions, and is a true visionary.

But he crashes hard into technical realities of what is or isn't possible in a given time frame.

In his brilliant mind, they are easy problems to solve.** But in reality? Not so much.


** Or are really hard problems, for which he has envisioned solutions in his mind.

So what you're saying is Elon is out of touch with reality?

 

[Ghosty]

Except they didn’t leave it open ended like that or most of us wouldn’t have paid. For example, with EAP they gave a very specific date. How about this example: you ordered and paid for a new graphic card for that motherboard. It’s on backorder, but they gave you a date when you bought the motherboard. You get it a few months after that date but it’s missing features and some of your best games keep crashing. You bought that motherboard and graphics card to play those games. I think the company that sold them to you has a problem on their hands. Certainly not the customer’s fault.

Yes, but playing along with the example - we all know that Graphics card will eventually need updates/new drivers for improved performance/error correction. And there is no guarantee it would perform flawlessly. There are various variables that may influence its performance - no different than Model S features being influenced by different variables (driving conditions), etc.

I understand the frustration - but with changing technology, Gov't bureaucracy, safety standards, financial feasibility, technical troubleshooting - there is a learning curve for it all. This is a phase that any fast-moving technology application experiences.

Reminds me of my OLED TV - I was shown beautiful colors at the store. I was shown beautiful ads displaying the wonders of OLED. Purchased it - and I can see almost no difference from my OLED and a standard 4k TV. Not considering the countless variables that would influence performance.

Yay! They added an edit button!

Was just going to say - hope my response isn't read as hostility. Just going with the flow of discussion. Ideas. Nothing more.

 

[Pruitt]

There are plenty of promises Tesla went back on or has not delivered.

- AP1 reading traffic lights...

I suspect that AP1 does read traffic lights, and I'll bet it reads them accurately well over 90% of the time. But it has to read them accurately 100% of the time, or you would have the occasional car running the light, with the potential for the obvious disaster to occur.

Hitting essentially 100% accuracy is a daunting task - much more so than perhaps most people realize. The camera has to see, and the computer correctly interpret, the status of the light in all conditions. What if the red or green light is out? How does the car interpret no light from the signal? What about the sun being directly in front of the camera (worst case - sun directly behind the signal)? Even with the sunlight blinding the camera, the camera and computer still need to interpret the signal correctly.

Reading traffic signals in all conditions is probably one of the most difficult aspects of FSD to accomplish. I think they'll get there, but AP1 camera and computing power are, I suspect, woefully inadequate to the task.

This AP1 owner gives Tesla a pass on this one.

 

[mmmk]

We have no idea where they are because they are being so opaque about everything, presumably to keep up the sales of EAP and FSD. I'm still a big believer in Tesla. I think they are a company that has and will continue to change the world for the better; I believe in Teslas ability to stimulate a global emissions reduction. That said, it's a bummer that the company I think has one of the most noble cause is still so Machiavellian. Buyer beware is a sentiment that absolves Tesla or any company from any ethics. Even if it's practical it's a coping mechanism for dealing with a shady seller. Tesla is sitting on a mound of data, and test info relating to these features. They are choosing to keep everyone in the dark on progress or lack thereof even after they failed to meet their own stated goals. I get this stuff is tough, I've been in the dev world. It'd be ethical for them to communicate progress more clearly to owners who bought features that don't exist when there were unambiguous claims these products would be delivered in 2017.

Also I've noticed around here when someone lays out a valid complaint against Tesla with clear points people either attack their character, claim they don't totally get it or the move the goal posts for Tesla. You can even checkout Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies. It seems like 'no true scotsman', 'tu quoque' and 'special pleading' are the most popular whenever someone points out obviously shady or unethical tactics. we really have no idea where they are with this because they don't tell us anything. We can't say it's because it only gets lights right 90% of the time. It sounds like a good guess but it's conjecture. And not telling us anything about their progress or future plans for any feature would be 100% ethical in my book... if they weren't taking peoples money for it.

 

[Tangible]

I suspect that AP1 does read traffic lights, and I'll bet it reads them accurately well over 90% of the time. But it has to read them accurately 100% of the time...

That's an important point that's often missed in discussions of FSD. Even if it can be shown that a self driving car is statistically safer than a human driven one, the public and the regulators will not accept a single fatality caused by FSD technology.

AP2 in its current state can't be trusted for even a few seconds on local streets. To be safe, the driver must be alert at all times. My personal experience is that it's more exhausting and stressful than just driving myself. It brakes hard for shadows and doesn't brake at all when coming up on a real stopped car. If a traffic light feature is actually released it would be crazy to treat it as anything more than a demo of technology that will be dependable years from now.

 

[Aieukl378]

I agree. I live on the east coast and don't experience full superchargers after a trip to Disney, Tennessee, dc, Erie, and Cleveland I've never seen a full station, I rarely even see a vehicle at one. Model 3 might change this, but I definitely agree they are for travel and daily charges should be at home.

Northeast owners live in the land of unlimited SC availability. Just made a trip to VT...hit SC in W. Lebanon. VT and Hookset, NH and no other Teslas at either and this was on a heavy travel day.

 

[HankLloydRight]

So what you're saying is Elon is out of touch with reality?

To quote and paraphrase a famous Savage, Elon rejects our reality and substitutes his own.

 

[number12]

Scalability is value. No different than buying a mother board that has excess slots for upcoming technology that - by the time it truly hits the market - your motherboard is obsolete. But you pay extra to have that option available. Whether it is eventually put to use...that is a factor in considering when choosing. It has value. It is up to the buyer to make a decision at purchase

People aren't forced or mislead to pay extra for an addition. Promises amount to conjecture. If it isn't here now - you should be reasonable and realize that technology is ever changing.

In retrospect, 10 years ago - or maybe even just five - did any of you really imagine yourself driving a gasless car with all the technology of a Tesla?

How long does it take for the typical car manufacturer to implement new technology? Some of these guys are still using CD players!! Tesla is a company that is ahead of its time and it is slowly forcing the entire industry - globally to rethink our entire infrastructure of transportation.

Tesla is the pillar of change. The bridge to a new more technologically advanced society.

When a car is $100k without some features on a $40k car. I'd say I paid for it. No one did me any favors.

 

[Swift]

We have no idea where they are because they are being so opaque about everything, presumably to keep up the sales of EAP and FSD. I'm still a big believer in Tesla. I think they are a company that has and will continue to change the world for the better; I believe in Teslas ability to stimulate a global emissions reduction. That said, it's a bummer that the company I think has one of the most noble cause is still so Machiavellian. Buyer beware is a sentiment that absolves Tesla or any company from any ethics. Even if it's practical it's a coping mechanism for dealing with a shady seller. Tesla is sitting on a mound of data, and test info relating to these features. They are choosing to keep everyone in the dark on progress or lack thereof even after they failed to meet their own stated goals. I get this stuff is tough, I've been in the dev world. It'd be ethical for them to communicate progress more clearly to owners who bought features that don't exist when there were unambiguous claims these products would be delivered in 2017.

Also I've noticed around here when someone lays out a valid complaint against Tesla with clear points people either attack their character, claim they don't totally get it or the move the goal posts for Tesla. You can even checkout Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies. It seems like 'no true scotsman', 'tu quoque' and 'special pleading' are the most popular whenever someone points out obviously shady or unethical tactics. we really have no idea where they are with this because they don't tell us anything. We can't say it's because it only gets lights right 90% of the time. It sounds like a good guess but it's conjecture. And not telling us anything about their progress or future plans for any feature would be 100% ethical in my book... if they weren't taking peoples money for it.

Well said. Thank you.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I suspect that AP1 does read traffic lights, and I'll bet it reads them accurately well over 90% of the time. But it has to read them accurately 100% of the time, or you would have the occasional car running the light, with the potential for the obvious disaster to occur.

Hitting essentially 100% accuracy is a daunting task - much more so than perhaps most people realize. The camera has to see, and the computer correctly interpret, the status of the light in all conditions. What if the red or green light is out? How does the car interpret no light from the signal? What about the sun being directly in front of the camera (worst case - sun directly behind the signal)? Even with the sunlight blinding the camera, the camera and computer still need to interpret the signal correctly.

Reading traffic signals in all conditions is probably one of the most difficult aspects of FSD to accomplish. I think they'll get there, but AP1 camera and computing power are, I suspect, woefully inadequate to the task.

This AP1 owner gives Tesla a pass on this one.

Oh, I'm sure MobilEye's EyeQ3 chip in AP1 reads traffic lights very, very reliably. It is a feature of EyeQ3 of course.

The problem is: The FoV of the AP1 camera is completely inadequate for seeing them when stopped. Tesla had to know this...

 

[RogerHScott]

Some of these guys are still using CD players!!

Sure, but otoh those CD players can actually play more than two songs without skipping, freezing for several seconds, or stopping all together with a Loading Error. A ten year old Zen device is a far more reliable way to play music than the USB player (or any of the streaming services) in a 2017 Tesla.

 

[alehbaba]

repost>>>
lets face it. AP2 wont EVER be fully functional or trustworthy. They are already saying new hw changes need to be made(2.5) and software can only do so much. Tesla uses sleazy tactics for sure to push sales like most car dealers do. Its a fact and doesnt matter if you drink the tesla koolaid or not its a fact. I will get flamed because "i dont own one" but my gf does and yea i do drive it sometimes and like the drive of course but 95k car(s60d) no way to me and she is seeing it too but she is all in financially so it is what it is.Yea now you can get the 75d with upgrades alot cheaper(of course) and with supercharging(she was told its going away forever on jan 15th so she bought into it eventhough i suggested she just wait till after 2017 summer-i am far more conservative financially with autos(yes i own mine and paid cash for it(only 10k but hey i never buy new cars)...
Anyhow she "can" afford it i guess and plans to drive it till the wheels fall off so she loves the ride and I do think its a neat car and the whole ev thing is great-and the tesla is the best looking ev on the road(why i dont understand as other car companies have far more years of design experience and could blow the doors off tesla if they wanted to).

The whole FSD/AP2 sell is silly to me to have in a car anyhow as anyone who thinks they can trust a computer to drive you around and trust your life and kids lives to it is mentally insane. In theory(like elon touts on and on about) its cool(like socialism and communism basic 101(IN THEORY ONLY OF COURSE) But in the real world its just unrealistic..With the amount of traffic growing in cities and the constant all day traffic rush hours its just not gonna happen this self driving fanatsy. Sure some of you with ap1 seems to say its amazing(ap1) now and can drive cross county with it on all the time(doubt it) but i bet its more stressfull siting there worried if it will go into another lane or brake for no reason or vear to the left...ectect....

Its a fantasy that elon sold you all to get more$$$$$$ for a car already overpriced and he knows it because the prices are dropping and resale prices are dropping as well.

 

[AndrewTX]

repost>>>


The whole FSD/AP2 sell is silly to me to have in a car anyhow as anyone who thinks they can trust a computer to drive you around and trust your life and kids lives to it is mentally insane. In theory(like elon touts on and on about) its cool(like socialism and communism basic 101(IN THEORY ONLY OF COURSE) But in the real world its just unrealistic..With the amount of traffic growing in cities and the constant all day traffic rush hours its just not gonna happen this self driving fanatsy. Sure some of you with ap1 seems to say its amazing(ap1) now and can drive cross county with it on all the time(doubt it) but i bet its more stressfull siting there worried if it will go into another lane or brake for no reason or vear to the left...ectect....

I'm not in this situation often but I find stop-and-go traffic on a freeway to be the best use case for EAP so far. Having it stay in its lane and manage acceleration/braking has made the times I've been fighting through traffic much more tolerable. YMMV.