boulder.dude
Member
Some roads are consistently bad (I-70 in Kansas, amiright?) for multiple people on this forum, and other roads are just fine.
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Major Phantom Braking Issues
- Thread starter LucLamma
- Start date
Straight, but fluctuating altitude, seems to be the problem.
unfortunately I do live in North Texas with frequent roadtrips across the Western part of the State... straight and fluctuating altitude describes anything West of Fort Worth pretty accurately.
Again ... plenty of "dumb" TACC with just radar units out there which work just fine. Cost-cutting and deleting an additional sensor was so brilliant.
The new AI approach (Vision,
“I don’t see anything [with my camera sensors only, and I no longer use radar as secondary sensor input to confirm, and my owner said Lidar isn't needed] . Should I keep going?”
KArnold
Active Member
I am similar in Ohio. I use FSDb all of the time and drive about 10k annually. I'll hit a PB of more than 20 MPH about once every few months. Even then that's dangerous enough but not even in my personal top 5 of bugs.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
I previously had frequent episodes of phantom braking/slowing even on flat roads. Thankfully it's all but disappeared for me with my current software (2022.44.30.10) It at least gives me hope that they can continue to improve for the others that are still having issues.
It's important to specify exactly what you're talking about with 'phantom braking.' There are everything from false AEB activations to mild 5 MPH slowing for no reason. Many makes seem to have issues with false AEB activations. I haven't talked to any other owners that have issues the way Tesla does with TACC. From personal experience I've driven Toyotas, Nissans and Subarus and never had any issues with any of them. Zero. That doesn't prove that these makes never have a problem but it's pretty strong evidence that the magnitude of the problem is orders of magnitude greater with Teslas.
Ummm
Be it slow down or be it AEB, the fact remains that these new systems have too much incoming data and are expected to make better decisions than the “keep going till something comes directly in my way”. The difference in end result does not negate the hypothesis that they all need a consistent reference. How they address that requirement is totally subjective, just as between you and me. For example, I slow down when crossing a green traffic signal. Others speed up.
Nugget of information: Mercedes is L3 Certified, yet their Drive Pilot will only activate when in high density traffic.
By the way, those old reliable cruise controls would gladly jump off a cliff for there is nothing in the way. The Tesla would slow down and maybe even AEB.
Today is really bad weather here.
As I took the ramp to the George Bush Turnpike, there was heavy rain with poor visibility, and no vehicles around me. I took the center lane, and put on the AP, for a speed of 70mph. However, AP beeped and let me know that due to poor visibility the speed is limited to 55mph. Not a problem. I let it do it's thing. I then saw couple of vehicles in my rear view mirror racing up to me at 70mph or so. As soon as they passed me, one on the left lane, the other in the right lane, AP suddenly revoked the "poor visibility" message" and got going to 70 mph. No issues. So as long as other pertinent objects such as vehicles are visible, it establishes a good reference and continues as expected.
As I took the ramp to the George Bush Turnpike, there was heavy rain with poor visibility, and no vehicles around me. I took the center lane, and put on the AP, for a speed of 70mph. However, AP beeped and let me know that due to poor visibility the speed is limited to 55mph. Not a problem. I let it do it's thing. I then saw couple of vehicles in my rear view mirror racing up to me at 70mph or so. As soon as they passed me, one on the left lane, the other in the right lane, AP suddenly revoked the "poor visibility" message" and got going to 70 mph. No issues. So as long as other pertinent objects such as vehicles are visible, it establishes a good reference and continues as expected.
so FSD is only working when there are other vehicles around and/or there's no rain or poor visibility. Regulators will be thrilled to grant approval for L3+ at any time now...
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Well, TACC will gladly jump off a cliff, too. None of them are intended take over steering; they're just intended to hold the speed unless they detect a car in front of them.
You're right that the systems have more incoming data but I'll disagree that they're expected to make 'better' decisions. In the case of TACC it has one job - maintain speed unless the lane is occupied. AEB has more to process, but we're talking about failures of TACC, not AEB. Regardless, adaptive cruise control has been around for years and is a fairly mature and reliable technology. For whatever reason, Tesla has been unable to show equivalent reliability with their version.
edit: the Mercedes L3 functionality you mention is limited to freeways, traveling 30 MPH max which essentially requires high density traffic; it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Except it doesn't only have one job, Tesla tasks TACC with much more than just looking in its own lane, and that is part of the problem. It will respond to speed limit changes, curves, objects in adjacent lanes, a turn signal toward an off ramp. In some markets (like EU) it will even slow down if it detects you are passing in a non-passing lane.
If Tesla made the feature into a dumber ACC feature, that might actually address a lot of concerns about PB, but I guess they are weighing things against other possible causes of crashes. As much as people complaint about PB, it has rarely actually resulted in a collision, while there are plenty of other AP collisions when the system fails to respond to something (most recent emergency vehicles).
Well I will let you think over this overnight.
#1. TACC will brake if it is on a cliff. I have experienced the braking when I am on a high overpass with no sight beyond.
#2. TACC had (not has) one job. Keep driving on a highway. Remember you cannot set the good old cruise control at city speed limits. The new TACC will operate at and keep driving in stop and go traffic.
#3. Mercedes L3 is totally relevant to the discussion. Why would you not question their decision to only operate in high density traffic?
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
1. TACC/Adaptive cruise are not intended to take over driving, just speed control. I admittedly haven’t tried driving it off a cliff, but I have had TACC fail to brake in other situations. Of course I’m holding the wheel and watching so I know that I should be disengaging cruise control. Exactly like I do with our 11 year old minivan or with any of the rental cars I’ve driven with Adaptive Cruise. The difference with the rental cars was I didn’t need to keep my foot hovered over the accelerator.
2. The other adaptive cruise systems I’ve used all work well on city streets, too (with the exception that not all of them will brake to a complete stop.) Even if you remove that exception, TACC routinely has issues on highways, meaning it still fails.
3. You’re assuming the speed limitation is due to technology and not regulation, but aside from that, Mercedes is L3. It completely assumes all driving rolls. Cruise control and adaptive cruise only deal with speed control. They are nowhere near the same thing, thus bringing Mercedes into the discussion is irrelevant.
#3 may be a common German approach or legislation based.
I have a BMW iX with Driver Assist Pro which works very well on the highway.
Additionally, when on the highway and traffic brings me down to 30mph or so, it offers/engages a hands-free mode.
They aren't accepting liability like Mercedes does, but its interesting they are doing hands free around the same speed.
1. TACC now vs Cruise Control then - the difference is it is supposed to be smarter, not just do one thing.
2. Cruise Control on my cars had a minimum speed limit before I could engage. I have skipped adopting Adaptive cruise control and moved directly to the new gen TACC. That being said, it has been proven that regular radar was always a problem and it would identify objects where none existed. HD Radar does not have that issue, and HD radar is the new kid on the block.
3. The L3 limitation is self imposed by Mercedes. The govt has nothing to say in that matter.
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