Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register
This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I get almost no PB issues using FSDb 2023.7.10 on freeways, but on 2-lane highways, PBing requires me to constantly hover over the go pedal. PB events on these 2-lane highways can be as often as several times per mile. Often I use AP/FSDb just for the steering and run the accelerator pedal myself. This time of year many events seem to be caused by mirages/heat waves/heat boil on the road ahead. Visually there are definitely objects appearing in the road, but the human brain easily identifies these as mirages where the car just slams on the brakes.

This is one of the reasons I believe dropping the radar was a mistake, or at least a premature cut.

Representative example from a search engine query:
Mirage.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DrChaos
Hi guys,

Just wanted to share an experience that I've had today so that others looking at Teslas to use for long distance driving can make an informed decision.

My wife and I drove our 2023 MYLR from Tucson to Las Vegas. It's a ~7 hour drive (8.5 with charging stops, ~400 miles) mostly through an open desert highway. Traffic is minimal and driving an ICE car is easy on cruise control. Most of the drive is going straight on a highway. We've done it dozens of times since we travel between the two spots often and is a reason we got a Tesla.

The car is 6 days old and running the latest software. During our trip we experienced 19 phantom breaking incidents where the car decided to break at highway speeds for no reason. In all cases there were no cars or obstructions in the way and this occurred at various stretches of the trip. The breaking was very aggressive.

After the first few phantom breaking events we started disabling various "autopilot" features such as emergency breaking, etc. In the end, nothing made a difference and the phantom breaking was occurring even on regular "cruise control" (one pull down) with all other features disabled.

To summarize, the experience was unpleasant and dangerous. If at any time during the phantom breaking event there was a car following us closely there would have been an accident. I do not feel safe operating this vehicle with any type of "autopilot" feature because it's unsafe and behaves erratically.

I know people will say that this is all "beta" and "experimental" and I should always be ready to take over, and of course that part is correct. But when the car breaks suddenly at highway speeds for no reason "taking over" is difficult, especially if this behavior creates an accident. Furthermore, the expectation is that it's 2022 and even the simplest of vehicles offer a cruise control that doesn't slam its breaks on the highway.

I'd be curious to know if others have the same issue. I feel like this is a SERIOUS safety problem and now I am very weary of my Tesla.

Luca
Identical to our experience last week on a 2000-mile round trip from Denver to / from KY. New-to-us '21 MYLR w/FSD one month subscription (did it for one month to try it out on this long trip). Easily 20+ phantom braking events, but every one of them were between Denver and Salina KS, and Salina and Denver on the return. Not one occurred between Salina/KY and KY/Salina.

Also noted is that our kids' tablet cellular signal would drop around the same time as some of the events, leading me to believe there was some linkage to the remote cellular signal loss (we have premium connectivity package). We were also able to trigger a phantom braking event THREE TIMES when dragging down the navigation to expand the full trip and SC stop times. My wife did it first while I was in nav w/autosteer running at 75 mph in eastern KS on I-70. As she swiped back up to collapse the menu, phantom braking happened (a good one, but not the worst we had). So I tried it 2 minutes later as a test - and voila, identical event at the same time. Then 4 minutes later I disengaged nav w/autosteer and went straight cruise control, then warned the kids and the wife, drug the nav expansion down, then swiped up to collapse, and the third event happened instantly.

After the Limon SC visit for the last leg home, I turned off the navigation w/autosteer FSD completely, leaving all other settings the same (automatic emergency braking was on also), then doubled down on the stalk to enter autopilot. We tinkered with the nav menus, changed lanes, and not once for the rest of the trip did we have another event. SW 2023.12.5.4.

We also own a '15 MS 70D and did a fun trip to/from Topeka back in April (our first ever long range trip in a Tesla, which is what drove us to get a second!), and the autopilot on that car was amazing (MCU2 upgrade). I never felt so relaxed when we got to our destination! Was really disappointed in the MYLR experience, though!
 
I see two outcomes if you get the car. 1. You will adapt and figure out how to drive the car and deal with any issues(PB) that come up, or 2. You will get the car and overly complain about every little quirk.

Now, I am not trying to say that PB is something that doesn't need to be fixed, or that there are some locations/scenarios where PB is more of an issue, I'm just saying that for the most part it can be dealt with. I personally keep my right foot over the accelerator for multiple reasons....any misc PB events, and the fact that I disengage AP as needed with the stalk and would need to generally be on the accelerator to avoid too much regenerative braking.

99% of driving in an ICE car is foot pressing the accelerator and the operator having to switch to the brake in an emergency...doesn't need to be different in the Tesla. Actually, the Tesla gives you a head start in an emergency because the regenerative braking kicks in as you go to switch to the brake in an emergency.

Anyway...I am sure you will love the car if you get it, or you will despise it. Based on your comments it seems like it might end up being the latter.

About your charging capabilities at home...there is nothing wrong with the Mobile connector....now your voltage/current capacity in the detached garage could be an issue... Based on your comments can I assume you are renting? Can you not do any electrical upgrades to your garage?
Thanks for your response. No, I own a condo in a four unit building, but my garage is detached. I only have a 15A breaker - wires run through rear unit and can't be changed. When I use my air compressor I always have to run a 75' heavy gauge extension cord to my front door outlet which handles 20A. Yeah, that's a reasonable work-around because I use it very infrequently. There is a possibility I could hier an electrician to run conduit along the outside of building to put in higher rated wiring or 240V, but I would have to work that out with other owners in HOA. It would cost several thousand $ I'm sure. BTW my neighbor to the rear who has a wall charger (garage attached to his unit) and now owns M3RWD and MYLR, said he has experienced PB but hardly at all if any during the past 2 years driving either vehicle.

I feel like I have blinders on right now because I was impressed with the Tesla and am so close to having a new car I can taste it. My old car doesn't even have a basic backup camera. What I don't want to do is constantly 2nd guess my decision after I buy the car. Having a cruise control that works reliably, as well as those on any other late model car, EV or not, is an important feature. Getting a new software feature, like scroll wheel that is reassignable to other functions is cool, but it is not a trade-off for having a sucky cruise control that I might have to often not use. That's what I am trying to assess. I am trying to make a smart, objective decision. So far, my friends and family say this will not be the last car I buy. Buy something else like a conventional ICE car, particularly if there is a potential safety issue from a sudden hard, unexpected PB event. They ask me, why am I so set on an EV?

The other problem is that the only information on characterizing the PB problems is coming from owners posting on forums and YouTube. Not scientific. The consensus seems to be that improvement of basic AP lags the improvements of FSD software. I do not plan to buy FSD or EAP. Unlike other cars, where the features of the car are fixed for the lifetime of vehicle, short of a forced recall to fix an issue, Tesla can always provide a software upgrade which is a plus. The question is, will they ever do it, for a problem that is getting a lot of attention from owners and NHSTA. Would it be better to wait for an HW4 car that has higher processing power, for it's higher resolution cameras, or wait for 2023.20 basic AP release to be rolled out to see if there are any improvements?

Also I will say that everything described on these forums is lumped into Phantom Braking. Slowing down gradually and resuming speed I do not consider Phantom Braking. Engaging full regenerative or hydraulic braking, with high deceleration force, enough to make a cell phone slide off the passenger seat onto the floor, I would consider a concerning PB event. I have not owned a Tesla previously. I have not experienced such a PB during a short test drive, so I don't really know what to expect. Hmmm. Maybe they need to add a slider to configure AP - more predictable, less predictable braking response. I'm being facetious or not. My vehicle should be predictable to other drivers whether I am in control or the computer is in control. Some blame the NHSTC for requiring Emergency Autobraking to take precedence over potential rear end collision accidents. Preaching to the choir.
 
Identical to our experience last week on a 2000-mile round trip from Denver to / from KY. New-to-us '21 MYLR w/FSD one month subscription (did it for one month to try it out on this long trip). Easily 20+ phantom braking events, but every one of them were between Denver and Salina KS, and Salina and Denver on the return. Not one occurred between Salina/KY and KY/Salina.

Also noted is that our kids' tablet cellular signal would drop around the same time as some of the events, leading me to believe there was some linkage to the remote cellular signal loss (we have premium connectivity package). We were also able to trigger a phantom braking event THREE TIMES when dragging down the navigation to expand the full trip and SC stop times. My wife did it first while I was in nav w/autosteer running at 75 mph in eastern KS on I-70. As she swiped back up to collapse the menu, phantom braking happened (a good one, but not the worst we had). So I tried it 2 minutes later as a test - and voila, identical event at the same time. Then 4 minutes later I disengaged nav w/autosteer and went straight cruise control, then warned the kids and the wife, drug the nav expansion down, then swiped up to collapse, and the third event happened instantly.

After the Limon SC visit for the last leg home, I turned off the navigation w/autosteer FSD completely, leaving all other settings the same (automatic emergency braking was on also), then doubled down on the stalk to enter autopilot. We tinkered with the nav menus, changed lanes, and not once for the rest of the trip did we have another event. SW 2023.12.5.4.

We also own a '15 MS 70D and did a fun trip to/from Topeka back in April (our first ever long range trip in a Tesla, which is what drove us to get a second!), and the autopilot on that car was amazing (MCU2 upgrade). I never felt so relaxed when we got to our destination! Was really disappointed in the MYLR experience, though!
This is a good report. I like that you approached observing the PB events scientifically. So I would ask what is unique to the expanse of roadway from Denver to Salinas that might be triggering more PB events? a) being on the high plains, I expect it is wide open and flat enough to see the curvature of the earth like driving in West TX b) much lower population density vs KS to KY, which might suggest more sporadic cellular signal coverage. Was it also very sunny and hot (heat mirages possible)?

I am still not convinced that FSDb software and basic AP software do not share common visual recognition subroutines. I am thinking even with FDSb turned off, the basic AP may be using parts of the FSDb software download. So, people's reports of frequency and severity of PB events may be confounded by the software installations FSDb vs no FDSb.

Sounds like a software fault or real time OS processing power deficiency. At the very least, It sounds like recommendation would be to go to full manual control when doing anything compute-intensive on the monitor.

You also raise the question of whether Premium Connectivity plays into the overall problem. I guess it is not possible to temporarily turn off premium connectivity w/o suspending subscription. I expect that premium connectivity is also necessary to run FSDb or EAP. Can someone weigh in? It would be interesting to know if anyone with basic AP software and Google maps downloaded by WiFi before driving (no wireless connectivity), experience any of these PB issues? It looks like it's going to be up to the drivers to figure all these issues out.
 
Almost correct. At least in my M3LR RWD it is the TACC at fault, not AutoPilot. And yeah, no other workarounds.

I always did as well, and still do in my non-Tesla vehicles. In the Tesla, my foot hovers over the go pedal to minimize passenger/pet effects of a phantom braking event whenever it may occur. Hate it. Worst part of my car.

It is in some early cases, e.g., overhead bypasses, railroad bridges and the like. Also affected by speed limits on close-by roads, vehicles approaching, and whatever else. Software iterations have eliminated some of the former more obvious causes, but PB has NOT gone away, at least not for me.

Also doesn’t mean they’ll win the suit, nor if they win that they’ll be awarded anything. But yes, I’d not want to go through that exercise.

Correct, no dumb cruise, sadly. But no one knows the extent to which PB has invaded the fleet. It seems some of us experience it and have since we bought the car regardless of software version, and PB improves and degrades over and over from update to update. That’s my case. There are others who report no problem or at least not a big enough problem to be concerned. Seems to be the luck of the draw with your vehicle, something unknown though until you get it.

Other EVs have mobile chargers as well and can charge from 120v and 240v outlets.

Depending upon where you are and where you drive, other L3 CCS charging stations likely exist. They are currently (LOL) not up to Supercharger density nor reliability, but could work. Again, solely mobile charging also works for many.

There was a burst of activity when TeslaVision disabled radar in cars that have it implying phantom braking was totally eliminated with the radar shut off. That, of course, was and is not the case. Phantom braking is brought to you in both cases, witness threads here on v2023.12.10 some of whom state PB has gotten worse than on previous versions.

No need to be hopeful on this front…PB seems intractable for those of us who “enjoy” it with their cars. It would be emotions better spent to be hopeful yours in not one of the cars like mine and that you don’t have PB at all.

Maybe. So far Tesla/Musk has never put back any hardware removed or modified. Similarly they have MOSTLY not retrenched on software changes except for walking back some of the more egregious UI issues with early V11 software. Walking back is not moving forward and anathema to the prime directive. It’s also not fun.

Yup, that sums it up. For MOST, it appears to not be a big deal or experienced at all. Then there’s those of us with the issue. It is always far worse for passengers and pets than the driver given their lack of any control over the situation. For the driver, it is a major annoyance.

LOL, that’s a good one! Thanks for the chuckle.

Yeah, complete disclaimer. You’re on your own. Make your decision accordingly. I wistfully long for dumb cruise control. Also, my 2018 M3LR RWD is my first and last Tesla, mostly because of PB but also some dissatisfaction with TV. But that’s just me. Here’s hoping YMMV.
Thanks for your comments. It seems you understand where I am coming from. Maybe I shouldn't have done so much research, but I am an engineer. I realize I am not going to get a definitive answer whether PB will be a problem for me or not, but if I buy the car I go into it informed and it is my choice if I choose to ignore a potential defect. Since there are other late model vehicles with TACC with self steering, that do not exhibit the PB issue, then it is a DEFECT from my point of view. I rented a car a few weeks ago - a Toyota Corolla. I didn't read the manual but finally figured out the car was steering for me when cruise control was enabled; it wan't wind blowing the car around. I was driving it on a hot, flat, open West TX road. No phantom braking. Nothing unpredictable. Boring car though.

Can you confirm that for your M3LR you have never used or installed FSDb software? I understand it is a separate software download, but I am not convinced that basic autopilot does not use some shared vision recognition modules that may be overwritten by FSDb download. No one can answer to this other than a Tesla engineer. It seems most of the reports on PB are being made by those that have FSDb s/w whether they have it engaged or not. Maybe, these owners are just more likely to share driving experiences than those not trialing FSDb. Anyhow, I see it as a confounding factor as to whether there is better or worse PB incidences.

You seem to believe that individual vehicles or models have more PB problems than others. What leads you to that conclusion? Other than ride height, windshield height and slope, clean glass, there shouldn't be any real differences in hardware or software or miles driven that would cause one vehicle to behave differently from another. I think occurrences of PB would be more dependent on geographic location, traffic density, highways vs interstate roads, controlled vs uncontrolled roads, driving preferences, and reliance on using cruise control more than anything else. People taking extended road trips seem to report the worst experience with TACC.
 
When you get FSDb, your car will download a new software set. It's not like getting EAP or basic FSD where the car simply enables software features that are already in the car. As of now, 2023.12.10 and 2023.7.10 are the latest software versions with FSDb. TACC, AP and NOA do not use FSDb software, though there may be some things common between them with regard to perception. However, it certainly appears that TACC, AP and NOA are well behind FSDb capabilities and more likely to experience PB.

Hopefully, Tesla will be replacing the old TACC, AP and NOA with feature-limited FSDb software soon.
I just spoke to my neighbor who has both a M3SR and MYLR. I thought he had only EAP on one of the cars, but turns out he has FSDb on the M3SR and EAP only on his MYLR. He said he had not noticed any PB events in the past year on either vehicle. He also described the PB events as slow downs with regenerative braking making it more abrupt, and usually all happened relative to a traffic situation. He has done roadtrips to Palm Springs - wide open, hot, desert roads and did not experience PB on these roads. He said he wouldn't hesitate to buy another Tesla.

Do you know, if the EAP feature has a different software release than standard AP. Obviously FSDb has a separate build. I am asking, because it seems those that have FSDb installed have had a better or different recent experience with PB problems. Don't know if EAP is a confounding factor or not.
 
From our perspective (individual owners) we can't make any assumptions about who gets more PB events. I only know for sure my own experience, and I try to qualify that with my exact configuration. 9/21 built Y LR, no FSD of any flavor, ever.

Out of the gate, PB was BAD, from 9/21 to 8/22. For some reason, it went away, literally never happened, from 8/22 to 3/23. Since then, PB came back until about late 5/23.

At first I thought it was software update related, but I never found any correlation with other owners on the same software versions.

If you dig into how Tesla rolls out changes, you quickly realize it's not like most car makers, or even really like any product engineering company. They continuously roll out changes, weekly or even daily, so each car is closer to a unique custom build than a "model" and "revision" like most product development systems. Tesla stores a set of data about your cars build that's more like a fingerprint than a configuration. This seems to make it nearly impossible for fully validating any software version against the entire fleet, so you might see bugs or weird stuff in some 2021 LR model Ys that other 2021 LR model Ys have no issues with. The public has now way of figuring out what causes one apparently identical car to behave entirely differently than another one. Hell, even Tesla can't figure it out.

But I say, go for it. It's a fun journey, and even with the worst PB all the time, it's still an amazing car. If your car has no PB issues after your first update (it's delivered with a production build), then just don't update, unless you really want to, and do a bunch of research on that version. If you do get PBs, update whenever possible, until you get a release that solves it. Works for me.
 
Would it be better to wait for an HW4 car that has higher processing power, for it's higher resolution cameras, or wait for 2023.20 basic AP release to be rolled out to see if there are any improvements?
Personally if I'm looking to buy a Tesla now - I'd wait for HW4. But that might be a few months away.

PB is a product of automatic emergency braking. Every car with AEB has some PB because false positives can't be eliminated.

Personally I've only had one or two hard braking events in the past 5 years. Rest are slow downs I wouldn't care much about in terms of safety.
 
From our perspective (individual owners) we can't make any assumptions about who gets more PB events. I only know for sure my own experience, and I try to qualify that with my exact configuration. 9/21 built Y LR, no FSD of any flavor, ever.

Out of the gate, PB was BAD, from 9/21 to 8/22. For some reason, it went away, literally never happened, from 8/22 to 3/23. Since then, PB came back until about late 5/23.

At first I thought it was software update related, but I never found any correlation with other owners on the same software versions.

If you dig into how Tesla rolls out changes, you quickly realize it's not like most car makers, or even really like any product engineering company. They continuously roll out changes, weekly or even daily, so each car is closer to a unique custom build than a "model" and "revision" like most product development systems. Tesla stores a set of data about your cars build that's more like a fingerprint than a configuration. This seems to make it nearly impossible for fully validating any software version against the entire fleet, so you might see bugs or weird stuff in some 2021 LR model Ys that other 2021 LR model Ys have no issues with. The public has now way of figuring out what causes one apparently identical car to behave entirely differently than another one. Hell, even Tesla can't figure it out.

But I say, go for it. It's a fun journey, and even with the worst PB all the time, it's still an amazing car. If your car has no PB issues after your first update (it's delivered with a production build), then just don't update, unless you really want to, and do a bunch of research on that version. If you do get PBs, update whenever possible, until you get a release that solves it. Works for me.
I have also read that map updates can make a difference.

When I rented a model 3 from hertz, I noticed they had a pending software update. I suspect rental vehicles may not always be on the latest software.

I have FSDb on my 2017 MS and noticed the PB’s are like slowdowns now too vs a hard brake (which have been rare). But I’ll be going on another long road trip and will monitor it then.

I’m surprised to hear that using the center screen would affect AP since there’s a separate dedicated computer for it. Sounds like a coding issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TechSavySD
…the PB issue, then it is a DEFECT from my point of view.
We agree. Tesla, and many here, don’t.
Can you confirm that for your M3LR you have never used or installed FSDb software?
I purchased my car in 2018 with EAP and FSD, betting on the come. When I could first get FSDb a few years ago, I applied and the car went into NannyMode to see if I “qualified,” i.e., was I a safe enough driver in Tesla’s opinion to be granted the test software. After a very short time, the results were not qualifying (score of 92) and annoying so I withdrew my request. So no, I don’t have FSDb. Today, I’ve stayed on software release v2022.20.8 to avoid deprecating my car with TV shortcomings. When those are overcome, or Tesla forces my car to do so, I’ll update.
It seems most of the reports on PB are being made by those that have FSDb s/w whether they have it engaged or not.
No FSDb, lots of phantom braking on my vehicle.
You seem to believe that individual vehicles or models have more PB problems than others. What leads you to that conclusion?
Fair question indeed. But the Tesla fleet is not homogeneous. Manufacturing changes take place constantly not just annually, the fleet is on many different software levels at any one time, a MIC Tesla differs from one coming out of Berlin, Austin, or Fremont, some vehicles (like mine) have and use radar while others do not, some vehicles (again like mine) have and use USS while others do not, and those are just some of the obvious differences among the fleet. I conclude that PB varies in incidence and severity across the fleet from having followed relevant threads in this and other forums in which posters experience and relate symptoms similar to mine while many others relate no issues whatever. And then there are the apologists who simply state a version of Steve Jobs’ infamous line “You’re holding it wrong” shifting the blame for PB onto the victim for not keeping the cameras clean enough, or having too high expectations, or suggesting overly-cautious false positives, the list goes on.
People taking extended road trips seem to report the worst experience with TACC.
Phantom braking in my car is an equal opportunity annoyance with TACC. It will happen essentially anywhere under almost any condition. I’ll use my TACC and what features EAP/FSD deliver when I drive, but don’t when I have passengers or our German Shepherd in the car. And yes, I’ve had my Model 3 into the service center twice for this over the years when they actually accepted appointments to check this out. Both times: checked and found operating normally.
 
Thanks for your response. No, I own a condo in a four unit building, but my garage is detached. I only have a 15A breaker - wires run through rear unit and can't be changed. When I use my air compressor I always have to run a 75' heavy gauge extension cord to my front door outlet which handles 20A. Yeah, that's a reasonable work-around because I use it very infrequently. There is a possibility I could hier an electrician to run conduit along the outside of building to put in higher rated wiring or 240V, but I would have to work that out with other owners in HOA. It would cost several thousand $ I'm sure. BTW my neighbor to the rear who has a wall charger (garage attached to his unit) and now owns M3RWD and MYLR, said he has experienced PB but hardly at all if any during the past 2 years driving either vehicle.

I feel like I have blinders on right now because I was impressed with the Tesla and am so close to having a new car I can taste it. My old car doesn't even have a basic backup camera. What I don't want to do is constantly 2nd guess my decision after I buy the car. Having a cruise control that works reliably, as well as those on any other late model car, EV or not, is an important feature. Getting a new software feature, like scroll wheel that is reassignable to other functions is cool, but it is not a trade-off for having a sucky cruise control that I might have to often not use. That's what I am trying to assess. I am trying to make a smart, objective decision. So far, my friends and family say this will not be the last car I buy. Buy something else like a conventional ICE car, particularly if there is a potential safety issue from a sudden hard, unexpected PB event. They ask me, why am I so set on an EV?

The other problem is that the only information on characterizing the PB problems is coming from owners posting on forums and YouTube. Not scientific. The consensus seems to be that improvement of basic AP lags the improvements of FSD software. I do not plan to buy FSD or EAP. Unlike other cars, where the features of the car are fixed for the lifetime of vehicle, short of a forced recall to fix an issue, Tesla can always provide a software upgrade which is a plus. The question is, will they ever do it, for a problem that is getting a lot of attention from owners and NHSTA. Would it be better to wait for an HW4 car that has higher processing power, for it's higher resolution cameras, or wait for 2023.20 basic AP release to be rolled out to see if there are any improvements?

Also I will say that everything described on these forums is lumped into Phantom Braking. Slowing down gradually and resuming speed I do not consider Phantom Braking. Engaging full regenerative or hydraulic braking, with high deceleration force, enough to make a cell phone slide off the passenger seat onto the floor, I would consider a concerning PB event. I have not owned a Tesla previously. I have not experienced such a PB during a short test drive, so I don't really know what to expect. Hmmm. Maybe they need to add a slider to configure AP - more predictable, less predictable braking response. I'm being facetious or not. My vehicle should be predictable to other drivers whether I am in control or the computer is in control. Some blame the NHSTC for requiring Emergency Autobraking to take precedence over potential rear end collision accidents. Preaching to the choir.

I understand your power situation, yeah that is a tough one.

I'll make a couple more comments...

So braking events are highly variable and different people "feel" different ways based on various things. A phantom braking event to me is a slowdown based on thinking there was an object in the way when there is nothing around(in reality) to make the car think there is a reason to brake. Now this is different than the car reacting to a dynamic driving scenario like it thinking a car in an adjacent lane was about to merge or change into your lane whether that was based in reality or not. * my definition of PB is subject to change, haha. There are other scenarios that I would consider PB that don't fit my definition but I feel the written definition has to be well separated to avoid chaos and confusion.

With PB events, it could be a 5mph slowdown or a 20mph slowdown and the rate of deceleration can be variable. The biggest thing I see when people complain about PB events is that it was a sudden "massive" slowdown when after asking more questions it turns out either they don't know what the actual slowdown was or they come up with numbers that don't fit their "feeling". If you are around other cars and a PB event hits AND you aren't necessarily on point in your observation and paying attention, or you were momentarily distracted by changing an HVAC setting when the PB event hits, people will generally get more startled and "feel" like the PB event was worse than it was.

I think simply in your and other people's cases, I think it is easiest to say that you WILL have PB events but they aren't going to be random, and most likely not "frequent". They may "feel" random, but generally when no other traffic is around, the PB events will probably be repeatable and therefore predictable when driving the same route.

Now doing TACC on city streets is going to be a whole different ballgame...I would say you WILL have more "PB" events but they are generally not true PB events and are going to be error or indecision in the driving logic in the car based on navigation logic and map data....bad speed limit data, confused on path of travel, etc. You will also have general path logic errors that you have to be prepared to take over for.

Personally, I love my car and I love FSDb and it makes various errors on city streets, but I am ALWAYS prepared to take over in an instant and I love trying to analyze the failures and think about why I think the car made different decisions or errors.

If you are worried about Tesla specific issues you have heard/read about, then don't get the car. Get something else and deal with that manufacturer's and models own quirks and issues. You are an engineer, cutting edge technology isn't cutting edge without some kinds of issues. If all the bugs were worked out it wouldn't be cutting edge anymore.

Waiting for HW4 I don't think is really going to do much. I think the limits in the code are the code itself and the logic. There is a lot of headroom still in HW3 for development...unless there is a massive breakthrough in coding that blows through that overhead instantly(unlikely).

You can wait, and wait, and wait, there will always be another reason to wait, but right now there isn't really any major hardware reason to wait for.

Good luck in your decision making process...pro's and con's right? The funny thing is that it is just as easy to talk badly about the car as it is to talk good about the car. I try to be neutral when people seem to be having a tough time wrapping their head around this decision like you seem to be. But....I love my car, I have my small share of PB events and other driving logic issues but I am able to easily deal with them and I wouldn't get any other car.
 
Personally if I'm looking to buy a Tesla now - I'd wait for HW4. But that might be a few months away.

PB is a product of automatic emergency braking. Every car with AEB has some PB because false positives can't be eliminated.

Personally I've only had one or two hard braking events in the past 5 years. Rest are slow downs I wouldn't care much about in terms of safety.

I don't think you can link the two as they are two completely different events with different triggers. Now maybe you can infer a small overlap in the software logic between the two but it isn't the same logic or you could have a PB event that acts like an AEB event that is not an AEB event which I don't think is going to happen. Even a "hard" PB is not the same as an AEB event. I have experienced a few AEB events, they are not the same in deceleration, physical braking action, or screen alerts.

Going on a different line of semantics....a PB event is not a false positive AEB event, nor would a false positive AEB event be a PB event...based on the actual operation of AEB.

Is TACC therefor also a product of AEB? I think I would argue that PB is more a product of TACC logic than AEB.

PB is also a very broad term.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sleepydoc
Personally if I'm looking to buy a Tesla now - I'd wait for HW4. But that might be a few months away.

PB is a product of automatic emergency braking. Every car with AEB has some PB because false positives can't be eliminated.

Personally I've only had one or two hard braking events in the past 5 years. Rest are slow downs I wouldn't care much about in terms of safety.
AEB causes phantom braking but Tesla's issues are far more prevalent and pervasive than 'every car with AEB.' Yes, if you dig you can find reports in most other makes but if you dig you'll also find that no other make has as many people complaining about PB as often. Also, Tesla's phantom braking seems to be a combination of false AEB activations combined with poor TACC/vision implementation.

False AEB activations are generally accompanied by warning bells and hard braking (truly slamming on the brakes.) Many/most of the PB events Tesla owners experience are more akin to taking your foot off the accelerator and letting regenerative braking slow the car. It's a fairly rapid deceleration but not 'slamming on the brakes.' These slowdowns can be anywhere from 2 MPH to 50 MPH. I've had them occur on wide open areas as well as on a 3 lane freeway with traffic all around me. I've had some be predictable (e.g. every time I approach a specific underpass) as well as random.

For comparison, we also have a Subaru Forester with a vision based adaptive cruise (and lane keep assist and AEB.) In the last 25,000 miles we've had exactly zero phantom braking events in that car. No AEB activations and no issues with adaptive cruise. My brother in law has a Toyota Prius with adaptive cruise (I don't know about AEB.) In 8 years he's had zero PB events. I have yet to talk to someone who owns a non-tesla with adaptive cruise that has even experience PB much less has significant issues with it.
 
Is TACC therefor also a product of AEB? I think I would argue that PB is more a product of TACC logic than AEB.
Its definitely possible that PB is a byproduct of TACC, not just AEB. Remember, they are not really different in terms of actual implementation - the car is trying to determine what is in front and at what speed the object in front is moving (or not moving).

The bottom line is it detects something in the front that the car thinks it is going to hit if it doesn't slow down. So, it is getting some kind of false positive in object detection in the front.

Also, Tesla's phantom braking seems to be a combination of false AEB activations combined with poor TACC/vision implementation.
There were definitely PB events with radar too. You can check the past posts. IIRC Tesla published some kind of report claiming the PB events have fallen with Vision ... who knows.

Essentially false positives and false negatives can't be completely removed, but can be slowly reduced with better NN. Reduction in one usually increases the other ... they may be by design increasing false positives to reduce false negatives, which are obviously more dangerous. Ever since that fatal accident when the car hot a crossing trailer (that also resulted in Tesla MobilEye divorce) - we have been hearing stories of PB.
 
Last edited:
Not just object detection but prediction on the behavior of that object.
Yes - thats why I just use the generic term AEB and not TACC. Traditionally TACC would only look at the car in front and not worry about cars crossing into your lane or in the city cross traffic or oncoming traffic (or VRU). Basically the car applies emergency braking / hard braking to avoid a collision.

Small slowdowns are just annoyances, rather than safety issues, though some people combine them with hard braking too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrGriz and enemji
From our perspective (individual owners) we can't make any assumptions about who gets more PB events. I only know for sure my own experience, and I try to qualify that with my exact configuration. 9/21 built Y LR, no FSD of any flavor, ever.

Out of the gate, PB was BAD, from 9/21 to 8/22. For some reason, it went away, literally never happened, from 8/22 to 3/23. Since then, PB came back until about late 5/23.

At first I thought it was software update related, but I never found any correlation with other owners on the same software versions.

If you dig into how Tesla rolls out changes, you quickly realize it's not like most car makers, or even really like any product engineering company. They continuously roll out changes, weekly or even daily, so each car is closer to a unique custom build than a "model" and "revision" like most product development systems. Tesla stores a set of data about your cars build that's more like a fingerprint than a configuration. This seems to make it nearly impossible for fully validating any software version against the entire fleet, so you might see bugs or weird stuff in some 2021 LR model Ys that other 2021 LR model Ys have no issues with. The public has now way of figuring out what causes one apparently identical car to behave entirely differently than another one. Hell, even Tesla can't figure it out.

But I say, go for it. It's a fun journey, and even with the worst PB all the time, it's still an amazing car. If your car has no PB issues after your first update (it's delivered with a production build), then just don't update, unless you really want to, and do a bunch of research on that version. If you do get PBs, update whenever possible, until you get a release that solves it. Works for me.
Thanks. Good advice!
 
We agree. Tesla, and many here, don’t.

I purchased my car in 2018 with EAP and FSD, betting on the come. When I could first get FSDb a few years ago, I applied and the car went into NannyMode to see if I “qualified,” i.e., was I a safe enough driver in Tesla’s opinion to be granted the test software. After a very short time, the results were not qualifying (score of 92) and annoying so I withdrew my request. So no, I don’t have FSDb. Today, I’ve stayed on software release v2022.20.8 to avoid deprecating my car with TV shortcomings. When those are overcome, or Tesla forces my car to do so, I’ll update.

No FSDb, lots of phantom braking on my vehicle.

Fair question indeed. But the Tesla fleet is not homogeneous. Manufacturing changes take place constantly not just annually, the fleet is on many different software levels at any one time, a MIC Tesla differs from one coming out of Berlin, Austin, or Fremont, some vehicles (like mine) have and use radar while others do not, some vehicles (again like mine) have and use USS while others do not, and those are just some of the obvious differences among the fleet. I conclude that PB varies in incidence and severity across the fleet from having followed relevant threads in this and other forums in which posters experience and relate symptoms similar to mine while many others relate no issues whatever. And then there are the apologists who simply state a version of Steve Jobs’ infamous line “You’re holding it wrong” shifting the blame for PB onto the victim for not keeping the cameras clean enough, or having too high expectations, or suggesting overly-cautious false positives, the list goes on.

Phantom braking in my car is an equal opportunity annoyance with TACC. It will happen essentially anywhere under almost any condition. I’ll use my TACC and what features EAP/FSD deliver when I drive, but don’t when I have passengers or our German Shepherd in the car. And yes, I’ve had my Model 3 into the service center twice for this over the years when they actually accepted appointments to check this out. Both times: checked and found operating normally.
That sounds smart to stay on a release that you had proven for your driving experience. So are you saying that your USS were not disabled with roll out of TeslaVision because you turned off automatic updates in time? Is it easy to verify that your USSs are still functioning with parking assist or accuracy of obstacle clearances? That's interesting if true.