The plug blade contacts shown in the above photos of the apparent Hubbell RR450FW do not look like they are brass. If they are steel, that could mean higher resistance and heat generation.
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Master Thread: Definitive 14-50 NEMA Outlet Guide
- Thread starter gilscales
- Start date
I disagree with using the highest current setting while charging because of stressing these plug in connections which we have proof of being problematic. As far as charging efficiency, even # wire gets hot when charging at 40A. Heat is wasted energy. So while 5A is probably not the most efficient charge rate, I'd contend that neither is 40A. I'd recommend charging at somewhere from 10 to 30A. Unless that won't get you enough charge to be ready for your next drive.
n2mb_racing
Active Member
True. i2r losses increase dramatically with current. But they are probably much less than the few hundred watts of idle current required during charging, regardless of charging rate. Someone tested this on the older chargers and TLDR, highest efficiency was largest current and even numbers. (32 / 24A / etc). That might have been with the older on board chargers, though.
Anyway, I don't worry about it. The newest UMC only allows 32A, which seems totally reasonable for a NEMA 14-50 outlet. The old UMC pushing 40A was a bit close and things got hot.
MLXXXp
Member
I saw that, but I didn't want to assume that was copper and accidentally cause someone to burn their house down.
I recently took apart a Bryan 14-50 and a cheap DR50-4S that I used for going on 5 years. The difference was not all that amazing like everyone makes it seem. I think the only failure point here is just making sure you got the wire under the terminal screw and torque it correctly on the cheap one. The Bryant has a clamping terminal so you can't really mess it up.
Bryant:
DR50-4S:
Bryant:
DR50-4S:
Quick update and 2 cents from my end: I replaced my Leviton ($10) outlet that was running hot lately with the Bryant ($50). I know Bryant is definitely better than the Leviton but I plan on charging with a 16A setting anyways. Sufficient rate for my daily use when I charge overnight.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Thanks for posting, but from your pictures, both the box terminals as well as the contacts are completely different design.
The terminal design of the Bryant has the screw push on the flat section that is directly part of the contacts, and has the triangle shape to clamp it. This is a much more secure connection (screw terminals seem to be one of the most common failure points of the residential outlets), and it also ensures the best contact area (unlike depending on the screw itself to push down).
The way the contacts are bent also is completely different. It explains why the Bryant's contacts feels so much tighter than any other outlet I've used.
The common screw-down wire clamps can work with careful installation, but the room for poor installation is greater than with the pressure-clamp mechanism found in the Hubbell 9450A, Bryant 9450FR, and Leviton 1450R.
However, installation carefulness does not affect the conductivity at the plug blade contacts. While most models of 14-50 receptacles use brass plug blade contacts, photos of the Leviton 279-S00 and Hubbell RR450F/W show plug blade contacts that look like some other material (and those in the Leviton 279-S00 are smaller than typical size, further reducing conductivity). It is no surprise that these receptacles have been reported with excessive heat on the front of the receptacle.
However, installation carefulness does not affect the conductivity at the plug blade contacts. While most models of 14-50 receptacles use brass plug blade contacts, photos of the Leviton 279-S00 and Hubbell RR450F/W show plug blade contacts that look like some other material (and those in the Leviton 279-S00 are smaller than typical size, further reducing conductivity). It is no surprise that these receptacles have been reported with excessive heat on the front of the receptacle.
Yeah, the Bryant has a far better clamping mechanism, not to mention a big hunk of copper that directly contacts the wire. More expensive to manufacture, though!
It's not even close, the Bryant will handle high loads far better than the other plug.
I probably should have said this before but I took apart the Bryant because it broke. The terminal clamp failed. I consider it just bad luck. They are sending me a replacement. I do think the way it captures the wire is superior and likely the reason these don't melt. The standard option of having a screw hit all the strands of a wire leaves it open to error.
In theory the Bryant should allow for more plug cycles. The Bryant contacts push against the plastic walls. The DR50 looks to be using the spring tension (I think). However... the Bryant contacts do not feel tighter to me. They feel about the same. I am not sure how to measure it though. I don't think it matters. I used that DR50 for 5 years every day and it's tight.
I am going to measure the thickness of the blades and post more detailed pictures. The Bryant has longer blades but I am not sure if it's thicker or wider. I put it back together before I opened the cheap outlet. I need to measure with a caliper and put them next to each other.
I agree the Bryant is a better outlet. I am just showing a comparison. I am actually still using the broken Bryant outlet. I swapped the broken hot terminal with the neutral and put it back together. The Tesla mobile connector doesn't use the neutral.
The Bryant comes apart with one screw. It would be easy to fix if they sold parts. parts.
In theory the Bryant should allow for more plug cycles. The Bryant contacts push against the plastic walls. The DR50 looks to be using the spring tension (I think). However... the Bryant contacts do not feel tighter to me. They feel about the same. I am not sure how to measure it though. I don't think it matters. I used that DR50 for 5 years every day and it's tight.
I am going to measure the thickness of the blades and post more detailed pictures. The Bryant has longer blades but I am not sure if it's thicker or wider. I put it back together before I opened the cheap outlet. I need to measure with a caliper and put them next to each other.
I agree the Bryant is a better outlet. I am just showing a comparison. I am actually still using the broken Bryant outlet. I swapped the broken hot terminal with the neutral and put it back together. The Tesla mobile connector doesn't use the neutral.
The Bryant comes apart with one screw. It would be easy to fix if they sold parts. parts.
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However, lower amperage charging will consume more energy, since the car will be turned on for a longer period of time due to the longer time spent charging (the car being turned on takes 400-500W versus probably around 25W when turned off).
I have a Hubbell receptacle (bought from a contractor store not online, so its legit), and Ive been using it for about 3 years. Most of the year it was working great (while Leviton would overheat every time regardless of ambient temp). But in the summer even with Hubbell I would get the reduced rate message and "red T" on the charger after charging for a few hours at 240/32A.
I checked the temp of the socket when that happens and yeah it gets toasty in the summer in a hot garage, so what I did was (my box is plastic) was drill some ventilation holes so that the hot air can escape from the inside. I made sure holes are small enough so that even the littles of fingers wont be able to get in there (used 7/32 inch drill bit). I made holes in the bottom (6 small holes in a chess board pattern) and 6 on top so that cold air can enter from the bottom and exit the top. After that no more issues at all, been 3 years now including during hot summers.
If you dont want to add your own ventilation then try using a metal box, it will hopefully work as a heatsink and leech the heat away from the receptacle inside, metal ones tend to be more holey to begin with anyways, the plastic ones are pretty solidly closed.
So for me at least it was just the fact that its in a hot garage and without ability to circulate air eventually it would get hot enough inside the enclosed box for it to trigger overheat.
PS - At first I started with just a couple holes, and it noticeably delayed the overheat, but would still happen (went from like 2 hours of charging to 4 at 32A before overheat would happen), so I kept increasing the number of holes until it stopped overheating.
PPS - Leviton I had originally would overheat within an hour and at all times of year. Its just the more industrial receptacles have more metal, so bigger heatsink, takes longer to get up to temp, but if there is nowhere for heat to go it will eventually overheat regardless of how big the receptacle is. Unless of course you finish charging before that point.
I checked the temp of the socket when that happens and yeah it gets toasty in the summer in a hot garage, so what I did was (my box is plastic) was drill some ventilation holes so that the hot air can escape from the inside. I made sure holes are small enough so that even the littles of fingers wont be able to get in there (used 7/32 inch drill bit). I made holes in the bottom (6 small holes in a chess board pattern) and 6 on top so that cold air can enter from the bottom and exit the top. After that no more issues at all, been 3 years now including during hot summers.
If you dont want to add your own ventilation then try using a metal box, it will hopefully work as a heatsink and leech the heat away from the receptacle inside, metal ones tend to be more holey to begin with anyways, the plastic ones are pretty solidly closed.
So for me at least it was just the fact that its in a hot garage and without ability to circulate air eventually it would get hot enough inside the enclosed box for it to trigger overheat.
PS - At first I started with just a couple holes, and it noticeably delayed the overheat, but would still happen (went from like 2 hours of charging to 4 at 32A before overheat would happen), so I kept increasing the number of holes until it stopped overheating.
PPS - Leviton I had originally would overheat within an hour and at all times of year. Its just the more industrial receptacles have more metal, so bigger heatsink, takes longer to get up to temp, but if there is nowhere for heat to go it will eventually overheat regardless of how big the receptacle is. Unless of course you finish charging before that point.
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Scan My Tesla reports >0.4kW consumption while the car is on. This also matches the drain people complain about when sentry mode is on.
Sorry, I thought it was Hubbell, but its actually Bryant 9450FR, which I guess is owned by Hubbell.
as for other questions:
I never unplug/replug it. Maybe once a year. Just did it first time in more than a year to take a picture.
Here is a picture of ventilation holes I described, prior to making these it would eventually overheat on 90F+ days in the summer (maybe after 2 hours of charging or so it would overheat). There are also holes in the bottom to let cool air come up as hot air exits the top:
The black electrical tape is there because the front plate arrived cracked, tape is only there to hide the crack (not for structural reasons as the screws are plenty to hold it all solidly together).
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In February 2023, I asked Hubbell, "Can you please indicate any differences between the Hubbell 9450A and the Bryant 9450FR? They appear identical other than the 9450A has the brand name molded into the receptacle while the 9450FR has it stamped/engraved on the mounting strap. I need to verify that the cosmetic difference is the only difference between these two devices and that they are otherwise identical in quality, materials, specifications, ratings, approvals, etc. Are they made in the same location using the same tooling? Thank you in advance for any information you can provide."
Their response:
Hello Roger,
The two different products are essentially the same, the components used are 90% the same in both, and both are made in the same plant. The differences are in the branding and identifiable components. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Thank you.
Best Regards,
Garrett
Technical Service
Hubbell Electrical Solutions
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