Metric versus Imperial Discussion

[Electroman]

Those making an argument that common people have been using imperial for a long time and it works well for the purpose, kind of makes me think are those that would have argued to keep Earth centric Aristotle view.

After all it was widely accepted at that time, explains everything you see through your eyes, and that is enough for a common man.

 

[STS-134]

Have you ever used a Celsius thermostat? You set the temperature using 0.5 degree increments. How is that better?

I do every day, in all of my cars, including my Tesla. What's wrong with that? Sometimes I set the temperature to a full decimal degree (like 20.0 or 22.0) and sometimes I set it to fractional degrees, like 23.5 or 21.5. Despite growing up with imperial and always having lived in the US, I know both scales equally well, and all of the apps on my phone are also set to display in °C.

I'd have my house thermostat set to Celsius too, except it's implemented in a really stupid way. The manufacturer made it do Fahrenheit internally and convert a close-by Celsius value for display while not displaying fractional degrees. So what this means is I can have it set to 25°C (77°F), and if I press temperature down, it will show that it's set to 24°C (76°F). This is actually 24.4°C, mind you, but it just displays it as "24". But what if I raise the temperature? Well, it thinks 78°F internally but still displays "25", just as it did when it was internally set to 77°F, which was also "25". So how can I know which "25" it is? Gotta press the up/down arrows to figure it out. And if that wasn't bad enough, when it displays "25°C" for the current temperature, there's no way to figure out exactly which "25" it is. Oh and of course, since the Fahrenheit degree steps aren't exactly twice the Celsius ones, some of these steps require two presses to get through a single number (an example being 25°C as I just explained, which corresponds to both 77°F and 78°F) while others require only one press (24°C only corresponds to 76°F and lowering the temperature again will cause it to display 23°C).I gave up, and just put it back to displaying °F. But this isn't a problem with temperature scales, it's a stupid implementation problem.

 

[ecarfan]

But metric IS the standard in Canada and much of the world, yet the volume measures that you can buy still hew to the old measurements

As an American who has moved to Canada I can say that the country never switched over completely due to a variety of factors. From Wikipedia:

While Canada has converted to the metric system for many purposes, there is still significant use of non-metric units and standards in many sectors of the Canadian economy and everyday life today. This is mainly due to historical ties with the United Kingdom, the traditional use of the imperial system of measurement in Canada, proximity to the United States, and strong public opposition to metrication during the transition period.

Reading that page one will discover that there was a lot of resistance to the metric system from more conservative and older Canadians. Some got quite hysterical about it. No surprise there. Older people usually hate change. That resistance has mostly faded, but even today in some sectors like the construction industry imperial units are commonly used, most likely because many building supplies come from the US.

I suspect that the reason Canada does this is because of France's presence there... they are rather insistent on "their way".

Premier Pierre Trudeau was the driver of the metric transition in the 1970’s. His Canadian French background probably had some influence on his decision to go metric, but ultimately all the provinces went along, some quite reluctantly.

Everyone I know in Vancouver is fine using the Celsius scale, even the old folks, and of course all residents are used to road signs in Kph and Km.

Living here I am regularly amused about unexpectedly discovering imperial unit usage among younger people. Had all my balcony pavers replaced. Went to paver supply sources and told them I need a certain number of square meters of pavers. The kids at the service counters looked at me like I had two heads. They could only think in square feet in that context.

 

[drtimhill]

Now... the converting between system you bring up, I suspect is not quite as every-day of an occurrence, but pretty common nonetheless. I think your example of the situation in Canada and France[1] is simply an argument for the need to settle on a single system, and scale "default" amounts to the right unit. Once everybody uses recipes (or whatever) that default to kilograms and milliliteters (instead of pounds and tablespoons)... that problem goes away.

As has happened in the UK, where pounds+ounces has been replaced with grams, oven temps have given from F to C, and liquids are specified in ml. And the world did not end, surprisingly.

 

[drtimhill]

Have you ever used a Celsius thermostat? You set the temperature using 0.5 degree increments. How is that better?

Do you only ever pay for things in exact dollar amounts? What is it about a decimal point that is so scary?

 

[ICUDoc]

One could argue ( )Australia has been metric since I was born, but we still use imperial measurements!
When you buy timber, for example, we pretend we are metric, but the lengths are 3 feet, 4 feet 5 and so on. We just masquerade and call them 900, 1200 1500mm and so on
Happy Christmas everyone! Hope you can relax and enjoy the Holidays and don't stress over whether the turkey is perfect or the pressies are ideal!

 

[drtimhill]

One could argue ( )Australia has been metric since I was born, but we still use imperial measurements!
When you buy timber, for example, we pretend we are metric, but the lengths are 3 feet, 4 feet 5 and so on. We just masquerade and call them 900, 1200 1500mm and so on
Happy Christmas everyone! Hope you can relax and enjoy the Holidays and don't stress over whether the turkey is perfect or the pressies are ideal!

Well in the US there is this standard lumber size called "2 by 4" and you would think it was 2" by 4" .. once upon a time it WAS, but its now LESS than that, but its still called a 2x4! Yeah, imperial makes so much sense. How many sheds in an acre, anyone?

 

[bxr140]

don't stress over whether the turkey is perfect

***Unless you’re a monster and you put stuffing in it.

Then you should stress about how you’re about to ruin the holidays for everyone.

 

[ecarfan]

Well in the US there is this standard lumber size called "2 by 4" and you would think it was 2" by 4" .. once upon a time it WAS, but its now LESS than that, but its still called a 2x4!

I’m laughing; this entire thread is off topic for this forum and now you are taking it even farther afield with a post that is off topic for this thread.

Timber sizes in inches have nothing to do with metric v. Imperial. For a history of “2x4” dimensions, see Harvard Design Magazine: Nominal Versus Actual: A History of the 2x4

 

[drtimhill]

I’m laughing; this entire thread is off topic for this forum and now you are taking it even farther afield with a post that is off topic for this thread.

Timber sizes in inches have nothing to do with metric v. Imperial. For a history of “2x4” dimensions, see Harvard Design Magazine: Nominal Versus Actual: A History of the 2x4

Well yes indeed, it's holiday thread-drift time, which is slightly less dangerous that snow-drift time in your car

 

[ggr]

Pilots in the US are used to Celcius, because all the weather information (ATIS, ASOS, etc) report temperature and dewpoints in it.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Pilots in the US are used to Celsius, because all the weather information (ATIS, ASOS, etc) report temperature and dewpoints in it.

But wind speed, altimeter and visibility are all in Imperial units. Wind speed is even more archaic and is in knots.

 

[scaesare]

I’m laughing; this entire thread is off topic for this forum and now you are taking it even farther afield with a post that is off topic for this thread.

Timber sizes in inches have nothing to do with metric v. Imperial. For a history of “2x4” dimensions, see Harvard Design Magazine: Nominal Versus Actual: A History of the 2x4

Then there's the issue of a pound of feathers weighs more than a pound of gold...

 

[mongo]

Obligatory Simpsons

 

[Midnightsun]

This will always be a debate no matter what. The entire building industry is based on imperial units. Steel is sold in imperial dimensions as well as wood. framing standard is 16" or 24" which obviously works with 4x8 sheets of drywall or plywood. A 2x4 is and always will measure 2" x 4" or close to it when is comes out of the mill unfinished and can still be bought as rough cut lumber. Todays standard are a result of wanting a nice finish so it is planed down to 3 1/2 x 1 1/2 which the standard in all our stores. Just look at the timber used in older homes where the lumber is unfinished, really rough stuff but it has the true dimension. Now before all of North America changes all its lumber and steel standard we all will be 6' under or maybe I should say 1.8288 meters.

That being said there is no doubt metric wins hands down. Water boils at 100 and freezes at 0. What were the thinking when they came up with 32 for freezing and 212 for boiling? Distance and length is also a mess in the imperial system compared to metric. 1/64"?.

Everyone in America already uses the metric system but many do not realize it. Just look at your money.

 

[SalisburySam]

Imperial vs. metric. Seems a bit like two languages each of which works fine for those who use them, and conversions/interpreters can fairly easily be made. Many, many people on the planet are very comfortable thinking and communicating in two languages, and lots of people have fluency with more than two. Similarly people can and do learn to mix and match Imperial and metric (and others like nautical) pretty much without missing a beat where each use is commonplace.

Given that, is Imperial or metric going away? Imperial maybe at some point but not anytime soon. Are little-spoken languages or languages used almost exclusively in one country going away? Doubtful, and then again no time soon. And where languages do cross borders, they become bastardized, idiomatic, change spellings and pronunciation, etc. Does anyone in the US speak “the King’s English” or is our version typically called “American English?” None of the simplicity, cleanliness, ease of use, nor nomenclatures of the metric system are likely to dislodge Imperial units where they are understood, common, and seemingly without compelling reason to change. I tried to learn French in high school…didn’t work well. I tried to learn knots, furlongs, fathoms, meters, hectares, gallons, and the like without much hassle and without need to convert. Does anyone really care how many meters in a furlong? P.S. it’s 201.1 meters, 220 yards, or ⅛ of a mile but the key here is that no one needs to convert nor especially cares to other than for academic exercise.

 

[STS-134]

Imperial vs. metric. Seems a bit like two languages each of which works fine for those who use them, and conversions/interpreters can fairly easily be made.

Yes, interpreters can be easily made. And so can mistakes.

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[scaesare]

Imperial vs. metric. Seems a bit like two languages each of which works fine for those who use them, and conversions/interpreters can fairly easily be made. Many, many people on the planet are very comfortable thinking and communicating in two languages, and lots of people have fluency with more than two. Similarly people can and do learn to mix and match Imperial and metric (and others like nautical) pretty much without missing a beat where each use is commonplace.

Given that, is Imperial or metric going away? Imperial maybe at some point but not anytime soon. Are little-spoken languages or languages used almost exclusively in one country going away? Doubtful, and then again no time soon. And where languages do cross borders, they become bastardized, idiomatic, change spellings and pronunciation, etc. Does anyone in the US speak “the King’s English” or is our version typically called “American English?” None of the simplicity, cleanliness, ease of use, nor nomenclatures of the metric system are likely to dislodge Imperial units where they are understood, common, and seemingly without compelling reason to change. I tried to learn French in high school…didn’t work well. I tried to learn knots, furlongs, fathoms, meters, hectares, gallons, and the like without much hassle and without need to convert. Does anyone really care how many meters in a furlong? P.S. it’s 201.1 meters, 220 yards, or ⅛ of a mile but the key here is that no one needs to convert nor especially cares to other than for academic exercise.

I think your post, as well as that of @Midnightsun make valid point's regarding the reason people are comfortable using what they are familiar with.

The issue I was primarily attempting to address was the assertion that imperial was a "better" as a result of the units used in everyday occurrences (i.e.- not having to use fractional degrees for your thermostat). I think it's pretty clear that's not really the case from a technical standpoint... there are plenty of cases where that premise doesn't hold in imperial, and in metric you can always change magnitudes.

Nonethless, I agree there will always be an aspect of "better" in terms of people not wanting to have to change. Incidentally, I say this as a "backwards" American citizen who uses imperial units all the time.... I realize when our management makes a dumb decision and the other team has a winning strategy... lol.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Ok guys, what do you think of this, since we’re bashing the US for being out of step. Make this change too?

 

[Electroman]

Ha ha ha. That’s another silliness this country is stuck with. .