Model 3 Supercharger usage

[Topher]

PG&E charges me a base rate of $.20/Kw. I believe that's the max rate Tesla has said they'll charge for the Supercharger. Well, in the summer, I already hit Tier 2 and sometimes Tier 3 which is way more expensive than $.20/Kw. Yet, my house is oddly efficient outside of 3 months in the summer so solar hasn't been worth it yet.

I can't imagine how solar could not be worth it. I pay $0.083 per kWh for my solar electricity, and I don't live in sunny California by any means. Whether solar is worth it doesn't depend much on how efficient your house is. Just size your array to match your yearly production, to your yearly consumption.

Thank you kindly.

p.s. kWh, not kW, is what you buy from PG&E.

 

[Topher]

Since I want Tesla to succeed (as should anyone who is considering buying their cars), let's look at what they need to do.

1) They need to project the image that Supercharging is a viable substitute for gassing up at the X-mart.
2) They need to project the image that a Tesla car is a full-use car, capable of long road trips.
3) They want to reduce the number of cars on the road, and enable ride-sharing.
4) They need to not go bankrupt.
5) They want to produce a car that will last for 500k to 1M miles.

So,I (hypothetical person) buy a Model 3, as an investment, I am going to rent it out on the Tesla network for its entire life. I live in a state that salts roads, and fairly close to a Supercharger. Salty roads means that my investment will die due to corrosion, not mechanical or battery failure. This implies that maximum ROI comes from keeping the car as busy as possible. I paid $52,000 for the car (long range battery and full self driving). 500,000 miles requires 121 GWh (no, really, I had no idea before I did the math). If I am paying for that, it comes to $24,200 (at my state's rate). If Tesla is, it costs (guessing $0.06/kWh) to $7,250. 25% Margin on the purchase price works out to $13,000. So, more than half of that going to pay for the electricity of 'free' supercharging. My costs per mile are either $0.15 versus $0.10 (there is a viable business model). This is why Tesla can't give free supercharging for life (violates #4). (The fact that they are still offering it on the Model S and X indicates, to me, that they don't expect to sell many of those into the network market.)

#2 is addressed by allowing *some* free supercharging. New owners might make a road trip just to 'take advantage' of that 'free' fuel. Once they see how simple and easy Supercharging is, they will pass that on to others thinking about buying a Model 3. Once they exceed the 1000 kWh, it will be just a small charge on their credit card, not worth noticing. I don't see how 400 kWh/year does this better. No one much is going to be keeping careful track of their yearly usage. It has virtually no impact on the Tesla Network cars.

I think Tesla may have hit on the best plan for them (given their aspirations). I do wish they had gotten there with fewer confusing changes in policy.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Runt8]

I can't imagine how solar could not be worth it. I pay $0.083 per kWh for my solar electricity, and I don't live in sunny California by any means. Whether solar is worth it doesn't depend much on how efficient your house is. Just size your array to match your yearly production, to your yearly consumption.

Thank you kindly.

p.s. kWh, not kW, is what you buy from PG&E.

You have to take into account the cost of installing solar, or, if you lease it, the fact that the solar company now owns part of your house.

 

[nwdiver]

You have to take into account the cost of installing solar, or, if you lease it, the fact that the solar company now owns part of your house.

Solar has become incredibly cheap... payback time for a DIY system is now as little as 4 years.

 

[JeffK]

So...throttle the folks getting free supercharging and give the folks that want or have to pay the max charging rates.

What? Heck no.
You forget you might get stuck behind someone charging at a slower rate. That's not something that's desirable in my book.
I think everyone should charge as quickly as possible and get out of the way of others.

 

[nwdiver]

What? Heck no.
You forget you might get stuck behind someone charging at a slower rate. That's not something that's desirable in my book.
I think everyone should charge as quickly as possible and get out of the way of others.

Yep; I really doubt Tesla cares about the 'free' electricity that superchargers would be dispensing. The objective of a fee for supercharging isn't to make money... it's to clear congestion. Slowing down charge rates would just make that worse.

 

[03DSG]

So...throttle the folks getting free supercharging and give the folks that want or have to pay the max charging rates.

Have you seen the Costco fuel lineups? People will wait 20 to 30 minutes to save .05 to .10 cents a litre.

 

[Runt8]

Solar has become incredibly cheap... payback time for a DIY system is now as little as 4 years.

That’s nice for the .001% of the population with the knowledge, skill, and time to install their own system. When I priced out a system for my house last year it was in the neighborhood of $20,000. With the very low electrical rates here it would take decades to pay off.

 

[nwdiver]

That’s nice for the .001% of the population with the knowledge, skill, and time to install their own system. When I priced out a system for my house last year it was in the neighborhood of $20,000. With the very low electrical rates here it would take decades to pay off.

~10 years for turnkey. Decade (Singular). Shop around a bit...

You really don't need much skill to install solar. Plenty of YouTube videos

 

[Runt8]

~10 years for turnkey. Decade (Singular). Shop around a bit...

You really don't need much skill to install solar. Plenty of YouTube videos

I’m fairly experienced with electrical work and home improvement projects (I’ve remodeled three bathrooms, the kitchen, done my own flooring, and roughed in a basement), and I would think twice before messing with installing solar. Considering the high voltage electrical and modifications needed on the roof, and the risk of damaging what are still fairly expensive solar panels if hooked up incorrectly, I would leave it to the professionals.

 

[Sandiegodoug]

Solar has become incredibly cheap... payback time for a DIY system is now as little as 4 years.

My system will recoup my investment in 4 years, and that's at the old rate. There have been 2 rate increases since. Home solar plus an electric car is way to go.

 

[DR61]

...When I priced out a system for my house last year it was in the neighborhood of $20,000. With the very low electrical rates here it would take decades to pay off.[/QUO

Electric rates change, usually upwards. And the solar system will increase appraised value of your house.

 

[nwdiver]

I’m fairly experienced with electrical work and home improvement projects (I’ve remodeled three bathrooms, the kitchen, done my own flooring, and roughed in a basement), and I would think twice before messing with installing solar. Considering the high voltage electrical and modifications needed on the roof, and the risk of damaging what are still fairly expensive solar panels if hooked up incorrectly, I would leave it to the professionals.

I'm actually not handy at all and I've installed 6 systems. You really can't damage the panels by wiring them wrong. They're incredibly simple => robust. We even dropped one off the roof, bent the frame a little but otherwise it was ok. All the electrical connections are recessed to you would have to try REALLY hard to get shocked. Of all the DIY work I've done solar was BY FAR the easiest. Like playing with REALLY big LEGOs

The trickiest part and the reason most electricians don't like messing with solar is the roof penetrations. It's fool-proof with the new flash-integrated feet. Super-Easy

 

[SageBrush]

I had the opportunity to try out the flashfoot2 solution this weekend. It worked great.
It has actually changed my mind about roof vs ground mount PV

 

[Garlan Garner]

I'm actually not handy at all and I've installed 6 systems. You really can't damage the panels by wiring them wrong. They're incredibly simple => robust. We even dropped one off the roof, bent the frame a little but otherwise it was ok. All the electrical connections are recessed to you would have to try REALLY hard to get shocked. Of all the DIY work I've done solar was BY FAR the easiest. Like playing with REALLY big LEGOs

The trickiest part and the reason most electricians don't like messing with solar is the roof penetrations. It's fool-proof with the new flash-integrated feet. Super-Easy

I installed my own system 4 years ago. There is no way all of that is needed. Especially at the higher price.

Unless you live in a tornadic zone where you want to keep your solar panels attached to your roof as the entire roof blows off and goes down the street....I would say that there is absolutely no reason to improve upon brackets and such.

Anyway, I don't know how to determine the cost of Super Charging in my area. How are you guys figuring that out?

 

[dhanson865]

To be fair, you have to ask them the question for 3 gallons per stop during a trip.

Only if you are on a Nissan Leaf forum (100 mile range) or a Toyota Prius forum (60 mpg).

If an average car the size of the model 3 gets 30mpg then grabbing 180 miles of range is like getting 6 gallons of gas.

And that's assuming you didn't get the long range model 3 that can stay and get more range.

 

[SageBrush]

Only if you are on a Nissan Leaf forum (100 mile range) or a Toyota Prius forum (60 mpg).

If an average car the size of the model 3 gets 30mpg then grabbing 180 miles of range is like getting 6 gallons of gas.

And that's assuming you didn't get the long range model 3 that can stay and get more range.

20 minute stop,
100 miles
I was being generous by saying 3 gallons

 

[dhanson865]

Solar has become incredibly cheap... payback time for a DIY system is now as little as 4 years.

I wish I lived in a state where payback was that short. I'd take comfort in the 10c per kWh electric but my home county now charges an extra $100 a year for EVs to register for tags vs the ICE registration. That extra $100 a year vs my 10,000 miles or so a year of driving basically eats into the savings per mile I was counting on when I got my first EV.

 

[dhanson865]

20 minute stop,
100 miles
I was being generous by saying 3 gallons

You are only being generous if you assume the Model 3 to ICE comparison is full of ICE cars that get better than 35 mpg.

Take a look at Gas Mileage of 2017 Vehicles by BMW and some do get 35 mpg highway but many get less than 30 mpg highway.

Gas Mileage of 2017 Vehicles by Audi again most are below 30 mpg highway

and these are 2017 models. The average ICE on the road is older.

 

[SageBrush]

You are only being generous if you assume the Model 3 to ICE comparison is full of ICE cars that get better than 35 mpg.

You have retreated from 'Prius only' to 'look at the Audis!'

Fueleconomy.gov found over 1800 models that get 30+ mpg on the highway (road trip, remember ?)