TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Model S 60 and 60D to be removed

Discussion in 'Model S' started by vigge50, Mar 17, 2017.

?

what reason do you think about Tesla discontinue its cheapest model S

  1. Make room for producing Model 3

    88.9%
  2. They would like to design something new about Model s

    11.1%
  1. 182RG

    182RG Free The Service Manuals From Tyranny

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    723
    Location:
    Virginia
    ^This^ They are eliminating price compression. The top spec Model 3 will be north of $70K USD. They were making peanuts or breaking even on S60.
     
  2. Troy

    Troy Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,817
    Location:
    #82 Troy, Mar 19, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    Here are some other Model S related changes I would expect to see in the future:
    • The Model S 90D and Model X 90D will be discontinued by the end of Aug 2017.
    • In 2018, the Model S and X will switch from the current 18650 Japan cells to the higher energy density and cheaper 2170 Gigafactory cells. The battery pack sizes will stay the same. The 100 kWh pack will still be 100 kWh but the new packs will be lighter and cheaper to manufacture.
    • When the S/X switch to 2170 cells, handling, performance, and range will improve because of weight reduction. I would expect 2.6% range improvement because of this change.
    • In 2018, Tesla will change the front design of the Model S and X to match the Model 3. This will improve range by 12.5% based on the 0.21 drag coefficient number Elon tweeted. Elon said the Model 3 will hopefully have 0.21 drag coefficient. The Model S has 0.24, which means 1-0.21/0.24= 12.5% difference. Drag coefficient is related to the shape of the design, not the dimensions. For example, the much smaller Tesla Roadster has 0.35 drag coefficient. Therefore it is perfectly possible that the Model S could also have 0.21 drag coefficient like the Model 3. It is true that the Model S has a bigger frontal area than the Model 3 but it is only 2.9% bigger. See details here.
     
    • Informative x 3
    • Like x 1
  3. vigge50

    vigge50 Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    652
    Location:
    Sverige
    i do believe that lighter battery pack will improve handling and performance but I don't believe it will do mush to range. In city driving it will maybe do some but on highway driving there you most of the time is in need for range weight donät do mush differens, it's nearly all about drag.

    For better drag coefficient, the new front is maybe better then the front of Model S but that's not everything, how is the roof and sides on Model S compere to Model 3?
     
  4. Troy

    Troy Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,817
    Location:
    #84 Troy, Mar 19, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    Hi, @vigge50. I was talking about EPA rated range. For example, the Model S 75D's rated range would improve from 259 mi to 266 mi when they switch to 2170 cells. 3 of the 5 EPA test cycles are for city driving.

    The roof and sides of the Model S might have an effect as you said. In that case, the range improvement might be maybe 11% instead of 12.5%. The point is, Tesla must change the front design of the Model S/X. Otherwise, the Model 3 will always be far superior. Currently, we are talking about 18-20% more range with the same battery size. That's too much difference. This undermines the reason for the Model S to exist.

    More range with the same battery means faster supercharging and cheaper charging costs. For example, the Model S 75D supercharges 9% faster than the Model X 75D because it has 9% more range. The Model 3 75D will supercharge 18-20% faster than the Model S 75D.

    Of course, all 75 kWh batteries will supercharge from 0 to 100% at the same time regardless of what car the battery is attached to. However, let's say somebody wants to supercharge to 230 rated miles. 230 rated miles means supercharging to 230/237= 97% in the X75D, 230/259= 88.9% in the S75D and 230/304= 75.7% in the 3-75D. Therefore contrary to common assumptions, the Model 3 75D is a better vehicle than the Model S 75D for long distance travel.
     
    • Informative x 1
  5. OBX John

    OBX John Autonomous Driving Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Messages:
    480
    Location:
    Outer Banks, North Carolina
    I guess I don't get the model 3 / Model S comparisons. The model 3 is always going to look like an economy car to me whereas the model S looks like a high-end sport sedan. Plus I need all the extra space that the S has - hauling around real estate signs, tools, and photography equipment, I use every inch of the storage capacity.
     
    • Like x 2
  6. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    3,401
    Location:
    Knoxville, Tennessee
    Possible

    Tesla says AP2 hardware refresh isn't coming right until it does

    Tesla says nosecone refresh isn't coming right until it does

    Tesla says new pack capacity won't come out right until it does

    Totally possible the same will happen with the 18650 to 2170 switch over. At some point it will happen and likely with no forewarning.
     
    • Like x 2
  7. vigge50

    vigge50 Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    652
    Location:
    Sverige
    Tesla Model S weight about 2000 kg and of this the batteries is 600 kg. Tesla have talked about a 30% improvement on the 2170 cells compere to the first cells use in Model S 85 kWh. Compere to 100 kWh its a improvement of 10% in size. Lets say that it's the same improvement in weight and that its for the hole pack. That would mean that the pack will be 60 kg lighter wish is 3% improvement. Will a 3% lighter car have 2.6% longer range? No, I don't believe so because there is a lot of other things that the range depends on. Have four passenger with you and according to you the range will drop 12%.

    Why does BMW both have a 3:serie and a 5:serie, I mean that the 3:serie is mush likely more efficient and isn't that the only thing that people look at then the choose a car?
    The Model S is bigger and only the fact that Model 3 isn't a hatchback makes many wonder if they should buy one because that range isn't the only thing that matters, why do Model X even sells if range was the only thing that matter? At least the five seater Model X is according to you complitly pointless and even then it sells.

    I don't now how it's for you but then I would need mush range is when I'm on long trips and that is often with the hole family and luggage. How big is the luggage in the Model 3 compere to Model S or that maybe not relevant according to you?
     
    • Like x 1
  8. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 Porsche 918 Hybrid

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    5,628
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    A thoughtful analysis on the battery and model options :cool:
    I can only hope that Tesla does not change the refreshed front end on the Model S and X... perhaps eliminate the mirrors instead.

     
    • Like x 1
  9. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    6,197
    Location:
    South Surrey, BC
    The 3 looks a lot like the S -- only smaller -- to me.

    I have a very different view of what an economy car looks like than you do.

    That will be the nice thing when I get a 3 since it will be great to zip around town in a smaller car when all that extra space is not needed -- then pack up my large frunk free supercharging S when I head to my cabin and I also need every last inch.
     
  10. OBX John

    OBX John Autonomous Driving Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Messages:
    480
    Location:
    Outer Banks, North Carolina
    No doubt pretty much every Model 3 buyer does... and it IS a pretty car for it's class. I suppose I should say small sedan rather than economy car, but I just see the greater proportion of glass to body with the shorter wheelbase, and it's the first thing that jumps to mind.

    It's just not beautiful to me like the Model S with it's longer, more powerful shape which people remark on all the time, even when they don't know it's a Tesla.

    I admit I'm totally biased, but the Model 3 just didn't "grab" me at all. It's a pretty version of the basic shape required of a small 5 door sedan.
     
    • Like x 3
  11. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 Porsche 918 Hybrid

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    5,628
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Agreed :cool:
    Tesla Model S vs Tesla Model 3: family rivalry

    upload_2017-3-19_13-24-28.png
     

    Attached Files:

    • Like x 2
  12. Troy

    Troy Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,817
    Location:
    Hi, @vigge50. The discussion is now getting off topic. So I have posted HERE about how the Model S range will change when they switch to 2170 cells.
     
  13. davidc18

    davidc18 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages:
    1,710
    Location:
    Ft. Lauderdale
    I predict that the battery size will go up when they switch to the new cells, leaving the 100 as the smallest option.
     
    • Like x 1
  14. Troy

    Troy Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,817
    Location:
    @davidc18, I would have predicted the same if Elon hadn't said twice that they will stop at 100 kWh for a while.

    16 Sep 2016: Elon Musk on Twitter
    07 Feb 2017: Elon Musk on Twitter

    I would love to see people making better predictions than I do. If somebody wants to challenge my predictions, check out the list of the things I predicted in the following topic. There is a link to a spreadsheet in the opening message:
    Prediction Thread - "You Called It"
     
    • Like x 1
  15. neilk

    neilk New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Dallas
    We just ordered a 60 after a short debate on whether we needed to the extra 30-40 miles of range for $6,500. I think Tesla made a big mistake with their pricing structure by only increasing the price depending on battery size or options. I didn't see any difference between the 60 and 75 except range and subsequent price increase.

    When you buy a BMW, Mercedes, etc, e.g. the 320i which is lowest base engine model has the bare bones as standard. Move up to the next model, the 330i, you get a few extra options standard, and move to the 340i even more is included. I think Tesla should have given more incentive to get people to buy the 75 than just range alone. The value proposition wasn't there IMO.
     
  16. Rbcnr

    Rbcnr Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    New York
    hey chopr147. noticed you are in wantagh. i am originally from levittown. nice to see someone from the same area!
     
    • Like x 1
  17. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2015
    Messages:
    4,173
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    I prefer the options to be separate from the battery size. This lets you get the actual car the you want rather than a prepackaged set that the manufacture wants to sell you.
     
    • Like x 5
  18. mrtian97

    mrtian97 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2016
    Messages:
    288
    Location:
    So Cal
    I just wished Tesla discontinue the S60 in August since I don't need car till August......

    Tesla marketing is good for the company, they have strategies to keep the company afloat as public company with significant shareholders expectation and only have 2 cars as their product.
     
  19. Xiao ma ge

    Xiao ma ge Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    Hongkong
  20. MIT_S60

    MIT_S60 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Messages:
    801
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    I wished Tesla didn't discontinue the X60D until the end of last year (as opposed to October). That being said, it made my decision been a Model S vs Model X much easier.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC