davidc18
Active Member
For a while can mean many things in Elon speak. Just thinking out loud that given the chance to go to say 130 on the battery will be an easy way to keep the top line price on the MS/MX well north of 100k+.
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Model S 60 and 60D to be removed
- Thread starter vigge50
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- Model S model s 60 model s 60d
I don't find the Model 3 an economy car in the sense of, say, a Toyota vs. Lexus.
But I do find the Model 3 an economy car in the sense of Audi A3-A4 vs. Audi A7-A8.
And that is a not an insignificant difference, both in size and prestige.
By the way, I've driven and owned many a A3-A4 and A6-A8. I have no problem with either class as a daily driver. But it is a different class.
But I do find the Model 3 an economy car in the sense of Audi A3-A4 vs. Audi A7-A8.
And that is a not an insignificant difference, both in size and prestige.
By the way, I've driven and owned many a A3-A4 and A6-A8. I have no problem with either class as a daily driver. But it is a different class.
Zoltrix77
Member
I still believe there will be bigger packs than 100 when a change to 2170 cells begins. Musk is hardly going to come out and say that there will be a bigger pack around the corner, eg, don't buy now. lucid is going to be offering 130 packs, so I see no reason to stop at 100. I agree that their is a point of deminiahing returns however, 130 is getting near the limit of what makes sense. Remember that the S is going to more than likely move more upmarket once the 3 is realeased, it needs to if it wants to compete with the lucid air and whatever the Germans have coming up in the next few years.
Do you really think the Lucid Air will make it to production of more than a few hundred hand built units? The company that is backing them is selling off real estate, they don't have a factory, and they don't have fast charging infrastructure. The car looks amazing, but I can't see it happening. Tesla got a head start with a cheap factory, second hand presses and government loans. Without all those ingredients making the perfect storm, Tesla wouldn't have survived past the pipe dream stage.
Discontinuing the S 60 and 60D isn't really simplifying production, since the only production differences between the 60 and 75 models is a software limitation on the battery capacity and changing the name plate. Producing cars with 60 battery pack capacity, isn't much different than other software configurable options like activating EAP or FSD.
Simplifying production will only come if Tesla reduces the number of hardware variants - such as dropping the 75 rear wheel drive models or the 90 battery pack models - something Tesla could do in the coming months, and ramp down production of the rear wheel drive motors and 90 battery packs.
This is primarily a small price increase for the entry level Model S - a price range that will likely be covered by the high end Model 3's.
Simplifying production will only come if Tesla reduces the number of hardware variants - such as dropping the 75 rear wheel drive models or the 90 battery pack models - something Tesla could do in the coming months, and ramp down production of the rear wheel drive motors and 90 battery packs.
This is primarily a small price increase for the entry level Model S - a price range that will likely be covered by the high end Model 3's.
True, on the other hand:
No failing solar money-sink to bail out
No pretend plan to make their own battery cells which turns into a building to house their supplier
No need to convince VC that the EV can succeed since tesla already showed a path to a return on the investment.
Still seems like a long shot, but so did Tesla.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
The Electrek article said "Tesla says that they are making the change because most customers ultimately end up upgrading to 75 kWh" and several have complained that that explanation does not seem likely (and I agree that it does not). But the email I got from Tesla actually said something different: "most customers ended up buying an equivalent to the Model S 75 kWh".
My reading of that is:
1. Tesla offered the 60kWh option to lower the base price to attract new customers that couldn't or wouldn't spend the $ on a 75kWh Model S
2. But they didn't get more Model S customers. They got the same customers, spending less on battery but more on options (hence "equivalent to 75kWh")
I agree the text can be read more than one way; but that's how I took it, and I think it makes sense both for why they'd offer it, and why they'd take it away.
Almost all manufacturers have large overlaps in the price ranges of their variously-sized cars, and I think Tesla will too. At least, once all the options are available on the 3 (apparently two of the biggies, P and D, won't be available at launch). I don't see why Tesla would remove S options just to make sure an S is always more expensive than a 3. Some people choose between differently-sized cars for reasons other than price.
My reading of that is:
1. Tesla offered the 60kWh option to lower the base price to attract new customers that couldn't or wouldn't spend the $ on a 75kWh Model S
2. But they didn't get more Model S customers. They got the same customers, spending less on battery but more on options (hence "equivalent to 75kWh")
I agree the text can be read more than one way; but that's how I took it, and I think it makes sense both for why they'd offer it, and why they'd take it away.
Almost all manufacturers have large overlaps in the price ranges of their variously-sized cars, and I think Tesla will too. At least, once all the options are available on the 3 (apparently two of the biggies, P and D, won't be available at launch). I don't see why Tesla would remove S options just to make sure an S is always more expensive than a 3. Some people choose between differently-sized cars for reasons other than price.
It's about product positioning. Tesla has done a great job in branding their car as exclusive car brand. I think the Model 3 will be the Mercedes C class which people will still associate MB as upper class brand but you pay lower price for the C class. I think from marketing perspective, which I completely agree with Tesla strategy in creating bigger gap between the 3 and the S. The S goes as much as $100k+, and I think Tesla wants to keep the S as their flagship product, similar to MB S class or BMW 7 series
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Tesla just sent out an email with slightly different wording:
"the majority of Tesla customers prefer to own the price equivalent of a Model S with 75 kWh battery or higher"
which supports the theory that even though most 60 buyers don't upgrade to 75, they do spend at least as much as a 75 costs, so Tesla does not think they are getting new owners with the artificially low price of a 75 sold as a 60. So they have no reason to give away all of that battery for free.
Yes, a C class costs less than an S class, at both the bottom and top ends. But there is still plenty of overlap, just like every other auto maker. Get an C class with all the options (including AMG and convertible), and it's well over $100k.
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
I spent more on my S60 than I would have on a base S75, but I wouldn't have bought a base S75. I think they knew what they were doing and it worked wonderfully. If they are losing money and it's not a good deal for Tesla to sell the 60 then they would have just stopped offering it like they did the X60 without any warning. One reason I jumped on ordering the S60 last July was I thought it was too good of a deal to last very long. The deal lasted longer than I expected. Hopefully I'm not kicking myself soon for not waiting for the Model 3.
Skotty
2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
I'm generally okay with this since the Model 3 is coming out. But if it wasn't, I wouldn't be happy about it.
The nice thing about the 60 is that you could get into the car for cheaper. Then down the road, when you are not in pain from the initial purchase anymore, you can throw a little more money at it and make it a 75. You end up spending more that way, sure, just as you do anytime you use a loan to buy a car.
However, I think the Model 3 will take care of the more budget limited buyers when it rolls out, so I'm not too bothered by it.
The nice thing about the 60 is that you could get into the car for cheaper. Then down the road, when you are not in pain from the initial purchase anymore, you can throw a little more money at it and make it a 75. You end up spending more that way, sure, just as you do anytime you use a loan to buy a car.
However, I think the Model 3 will take care of the more budget limited buyers when it rolls out, so I'm not too bothered by it.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
whitex
Well-Known Member
This new wording implies that people's car preference is based on price. They seem to think that a guy who bought a base S60D would be just as happy with S75 (non-D) because it's price is about the same. I think marketing is hitting the sauce early this Friday.
Yep...I recently met a few junior folks in that department and walked away saying wow, just wow.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Here is the next idea, why bother making P100D at all, just sell the customer a $140K "S75!" with gold plated exclamation that signifies you bought every single available option including the super exclusive "!". Win-win, right, customer wanted $140K car and got one, Tesla margins soar, someone in marketing gets a promotion!
Hi. A few months ago, in this thread, I posted message #76 here full of predictions. It turns out those were not bad at all.
Quote: Tesla won't bring back the 70. In fact, they will discontinue the 75 too because ...
Tesla confirmed they will discontinue the Model S 75.
Quote: 304 mi EPA rated range
Tesla says 310 mi
Quote: 5.0s 0-60mph
Tesla says 5.1s
Quote: $8K for the battery upgrade
Tesla says $9K
Quote: About the same cabin space as the Model S
Better head room and same leg room confirmed. See details here.
Quote: Tesla won't bring back the 70. In fact, they will discontinue the 75 too because ...
Tesla confirmed they will discontinue the Model S 75.
Quote: 304 mi EPA rated range
Tesla says 310 mi
Quote: 5.0s 0-60mph
Tesla says 5.1s
Quote: $8K for the battery upgrade
Tesla says $9K
Quote: About the same cabin space as the Model S
Better head room and same leg room confirmed. See details here.
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Are you going to publish the results of the participants in your polls ?
I hope so -- I want to know how I did compared to the group willing to stick their necks on the block ;-)
And it is worthwhile to know the utility of the group if we just go by most popular answer
Hi, @SageBrush. Yes, I will start working on poll results soon that are part of the Tesla Predictions Competition.
