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Model S 60 and 60D to be removed
- Thread starter vigge50
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- Model S model s 60 model s 60d
Here are some other Model S related changes I would expect to see in the future:
- The Model S 90D and Model X 90D will be discontinued by the end of Aug 2017.
- In 2018, the Model S and X will switch from the current 18650 Japan cells to the higher energy density and cheaper 2170 Gigafactory cells. The battery pack sizes will stay the same. The 100 kWh pack will still be 100 kWh but the new packs will be lighter and cheaper to manufacture.
- When the S/X switch to 2170 cells, handling, performance, and range will improve because of weight reduction. I would expect 2.6% range improvement because of this change.
- In 2018, Tesla will change the front design of the Model S and X to match the Model 3. This will improve range by 12.5% based on the 0.21 drag coefficient number Elon tweeted. Elon said the Model 3 will hopefully have 0.21 drag coefficient. The Model S has 0.24, which means 1-0.21/0.24= 12.5% difference. Drag coefficient is related to the shape of the design, not the dimensions. For example, the much smaller Tesla Roadster has 0.35 drag coefficient. Therefore it is perfectly possible that the Model S could also have 0.21 drag coefficient like the Model 3. It is true that the Model S has a bigger frontal area than the Model 3 but it is only 2.9% bigger. See details here.
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i do believe that lighter battery pack will improve handling and performance but I don't believe it will do mush to range. In city driving it will maybe do some but on highway driving there you most of the time is in need for range weight donät do mush differens, it's nearly all about drag.
For better drag coefficient, the new front is maybe better then the front of Model S but that's not everything, how is the roof and sides on Model S compere to Model 3?
Hi, @vigge50. I was talking about EPA rated range. For example, the Model S 75D's rated range would improve from 259 mi to 266 mi when they switch to 2170 cells. 3 of the 5 EPA test cycles are for city driving.
The roof and sides of the Model S might have an effect as you said. In that case, the range improvement might be maybe 11% instead of 12.5%. The point is, Tesla must change the front design of the Model S/X. Otherwise, the Model 3 will always be far superior. Currently, we are talking about 18-20% more range with the same battery size. That's too much difference. This undermines the reason for the Model S to exist.
More range with the same battery means faster supercharging and cheaper charging costs. For example, the Model S 75D supercharges 9% faster than the Model X 75D because it has 9% more range. The Model 3 75D will supercharge 18-20% faster than the Model S 75D.
Of course, all 75 kWh batteries will supercharge from 0 to 100% at the same time regardless of what car the battery is attached to. However, let's say somebody wants to supercharge to 230 rated miles. 230 rated miles means supercharging to 230/237= 97% in the X75D, 230/259= 88.9% in the S75D and 230/304= 75.7% in the 3-75D. Therefore contrary to common assumptions, the Model 3 75D is a better vehicle than the Model S 75D for long distance travel.
The roof and sides of the Model S might have an effect as you said. In that case, the range improvement might be maybe 11% instead of 12.5%. The point is, Tesla must change the front design of the Model S/X. Otherwise, the Model 3 will always be far superior. Currently, we are talking about 18-20% more range with the same battery size. That's too much difference. This undermines the reason for the Model S to exist.
More range with the same battery means faster supercharging and cheaper charging costs. For example, the Model S 75D supercharges 9% faster than the Model X 75D because it has 9% more range. The Model 3 75D will supercharge 18-20% faster than the Model S 75D.
Of course, all 75 kWh batteries will supercharge from 0 to 100% at the same time regardless of what car the battery is attached to. However, let's say somebody wants to supercharge to 230 rated miles. 230 rated miles means supercharging to 230/237= 97% in the X75D, 230/259= 88.9% in the S75D and 230/304= 75.7% in the 3-75D. Therefore contrary to common assumptions, the Model 3 75D is a better vehicle than the Model S 75D for long distance travel.
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OBX John
Autonomous Driving Enthusiast
I guess I don't get the model 3 / Model S comparisons. The model 3 is always going to look like an economy car to me whereas the model S looks like a high-end sport sedan. Plus I need all the extra space that the S has - hauling around real estate signs, tools, and photography equipment, I use every inch of the storage capacity.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
Good thing I just ordered my 60D a few days ago.I wonder if the removal of the 60kWh option could have anything to do with migrating the S/X to packs with the new cells? Fewer packs to design and build?
Possible
Tesla says AP2 hardware refresh isn't coming right until it does
Tesla says nosecone refresh isn't coming right until it does
Tesla says new pack capacity won't come out right until it does
Totally possible the same will happen with the 18650 to 2170 switch over. At some point it will happen and likely with no forewarning.
Tesla Model S weight about 2000 kg and of this the batteries is 600 kg. Tesla have talked about a 30% improvement on the 2170 cells compere to the first cells use in Model S 85 kWh. Compere to 100 kWh its a improvement of 10% in size. Lets say that it's the same improvement in weight and that its for the hole pack. That would mean that the pack will be 60 kg lighter wish is 3% improvement. Will a 3% lighter car have 2.6% longer range? No, I don't believe so because there is a lot of other things that the range depends on. Have four passenger with you and according to you the range will drop 12%.
Why does BMW both have a 3:serie and a 5:serie, I mean that the 3:serie is mush likely more efficient and isn't that the only thing that people look at then the choose a car?
The Model S is bigger and only the fact that Model 3 isn't a hatchback makes many wonder if they should buy one because that range isn't the only thing that matters, why do Model X even sells if range was the only thing that matter? At least the five seater Model X is according to you complitly pointless and even then it sells.
I don't now how it's for you but then I would need mush range is when I'm on long trips and that is often with the hole family and luggage. How big is the luggage in the Model 3 compere to Model S or that maybe not relevant according to you?
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
A thoughtful analysis on the battery and model options
I can only hope that Tesla does not change the refreshed front end on the Model S and X... perhaps eliminate the mirrors instead.
I can only hope that Tesla does not change the refreshed front end on the Model S and X... perhaps eliminate the mirrors instead.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
The 3 looks a lot like the S -- only smaller -- to me.
I have a very different view of what an economy car looks like than you do.
That will be the nice thing when I get a 3 since it will be great to zip around town in a smaller car when all that extra space is not needed -- then pack up my large frunk free supercharging S when I head to my cabin and I also need every last inch.
OBX John
Autonomous Driving Enthusiast
No doubt pretty much every Model 3 buyer does... and it IS a pretty car for it's class. I suppose I should say small sedan rather than economy car, but I just see the greater proportion of glass to body with the shorter wheelbase, and it's the first thing that jumps to mind.
It's just not beautiful to me like the Model S with it's longer, more powerful shape which people remark on all the time, even when they don't know it's a Tesla.
I admit I'm totally biased, but the Model 3 just didn't "grab" me at all. It's a pretty version of the basic shape required of a small 5 door sedan.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Attachments
@davidc18, I would have predicted the same if Elon hadn't said twice that they will stop at 100 kWh for a while.
16 Sep 2016: Elon Musk on Twitter
07 Feb 2017: Elon Musk on Twitter
I would love to see people making better predictions than I do. If somebody wants to challenge my predictions, check out the list of the things I predicted in the following topic. There is a link to a spreadsheet in the opening message:
Prediction Thread - "You Called It"
16 Sep 2016: Elon Musk on Twitter
07 Feb 2017: Elon Musk on Twitter
I would love to see people making better predictions than I do. If somebody wants to challenge my predictions, check out the list of the things I predicted in the following topic. There is a link to a spreadsheet in the opening message:
Prediction Thread - "You Called It"
We just ordered a 60 after a short debate on whether we needed to the extra 30-40 miles of range for $6,500. I think Tesla made a big mistake with their pricing structure by only increasing the price depending on battery size or options. I didn't see any difference between the 60 and 75 except range and subsequent price increase.
When you buy a BMW, Mercedes, etc, e.g. the 320i which is lowest base engine model has the bare bones as standard. Move up to the next model, the 330i, you get a few extra options standard, and move to the 340i even more is included. I think Tesla should have given more incentive to get people to buy the 75 than just range alone. The value proposition wasn't there IMO.
When you buy a BMW, Mercedes, etc, e.g. the 320i which is lowest base engine model has the bare bones as standard. Move up to the next model, the 330i, you get a few extra options standard, and move to the 340i even more is included. I think Tesla should have given more incentive to get people to buy the 75 than just range alone. The value proposition wasn't there IMO.
hey chopr147. noticed you are in wantagh. i am originally from levittown. nice to see someone from the same area!
jelloslug
Active Member
I prefer the options to be separate from the battery size. This lets you get the actual car the you want rather than a prepackaged set that the manufacture wants to sell you.
Xiao ma ge
Member
Tesla is discontinuing its least expensive Model S with 60 kWh battery pack next month | Electrek Tesla is discontinuing its least expensive Model S with 60 kWh battery pack next month
I wished Tesla didn't discontinue the X60D until the end of last year (as opposed to October). That being said, it made my decision been a Model S vs Model X much easier.
