Model X AP1 is more stable than AP2?

[TaoJones]

There is a separate topic just to discuss AP1 vs. AP2. Here is my writeup . Admittedly a limited 200 mile test drive compared to many of you who own it and drive everyday. I didn't see any issues at all.

Not a single failure to display the correct speed limit in the IC due to AP2's inability to read speed limit signs as AP1 does?

Not a single case of the car braking even though there was no obstacle in front of it?

Not a single case of the car veering out of lane or of getting too close to another vehicle?

No disengagements?

"No issues at all"?!

The word "incredulity" does not begin to describe.

I nominate this poster to produce the 2017 anniversary edition of the now infamous December 2016 video. With a voiceover from Kevin Bacon repeating "All is well" from Animal House.

 

[Electroman]

You can take it or leave it. I did not pay attention to how accurate the speed signs are, as I set the limit by about 5 miles above. It is my regular commute route that I know quite well.

No random brakes, no running over lanes. No attempt to kill me. Just as bad or as good in construction zones, and I generally don't use AP or watch like a hawk in those dicey places.

I have driven AP1 for close to 30k miles and I very well understand it's strengths and weaknesses. My limited 200 mile AP2 evaluation is with that background in mind.

I wish I had taken video every time I turned on AP, but I posted what I took that gives you a flavor of how centered it is even on curves.

On one section of stop and go traffic you will see that the display shows riding on the lane, but the car itself is not. You can see that on the video.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Smooth/confident != Safe. If anything, erratic control inputs results in more "safety" in an ADAS because it scares the crap out of the driver and forces him to pay attention.

More like forces the driver to not use the feature.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

1 - entered a construction zone with concrete barricades right up against the lane markings. Pretty clearly, my car was relying on the painted lines and get uncomfortably close to the concrete barricades - had to pull the wheel to the right and disengage AP.

Yep, AP1 seems to be predictable in this sense. This you can plan for.

AP2 on the other hand has had a tendency of following any old tar-line instead of sticking to the lane markings.

 

[Yinn]

Not a single failure to display the correct speed limit in the IC due to AP2's inability to read speed limit signs as AP1 does?

Not a single case of the car braking even though there was no obstacle in front of it?

Not a single case of the car veering out of lane or of getting too close to another vehicle?

No disengagements?

"No issues at all"?!

The word "incredulity" does not begin to describe.

I nominate this poster to produce the 2017 anniversary edition of the now infamous December 2016 video. With a voiceover from Kevin Bacon repeating "All is well" from Animal House.

In all fairness, I have just about equal miles of AP1 and working EAP on my X at this point. Another 10,000 miles on my AP2 S that includes functioning & non-functioning AP2. I have only had one instance of my car braking with no obstacle in front of it, and one instance of automatic disengagement. Both were on my AP2 just a couple weeks ago for a fraction of a second. I did not experience any of the overpass issues when AP2 was rolled out as noted by others here.

With only 200 miles, I would believe he may not have experienced any of it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It also shows that the frequency of which this occurs varies based on where you're driving.

 

[Electroman]

With only 200 miles, I would believe he may not have experienced any of it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It also shows that the frequency of which this occurs varies based on where you're driving.

That is true. I may not have seen conditions that gets AP2 to brake for overpasses.

But what puzzles me is the Autosteer behavior I saw in maintaining the lane just as good as AP1 in straight stretches, curves, construction zones with bots rather than lines etc.. compared to a few here who seem to be having trouble the moment they turn on AP.

 

[skilly]

That is true. I may not have seen conditions that gets AP2 to brake for overpasses.

But what puzzles me is the Autosteer behavior I saw in maintaining the lane just as good as AP1 in straight stretches, curves, construction zones with bots rather than lines etc.. compared to a few here who seem to be having trouble the moment they turn on AP.

I think its a matter of so many variables combined with expectation setting.

At present AP2 in its current form will scare you at some point. Its really not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when". Second, variables such as traffic, road status and even weather will have a play on how it manages your AP experience. So while it would be rare, it wouldn't be completely impossible for someone to drive 200 miles and not experience any truly scary moment.

The fact remains that they have significant development to accomplish for AP2's capabilities to be fully realized. It has 6 cameras yet they only recently started taking feedback from a second camera...still 4 to go in the grand scheme. Code had to go back to ground zero when working with the new sensor array in AP2, but comparing it to AP1 is kind of like comparing Windows 95 to the latest Windows version...yes 95 was nice and stable, but its capabilities were a fraction of what is required today.

I see people here citing AP2 functionality for their reasons for buying an AP1 car or holding off entirely on their purchase. They are of course entitled to the option and opinion, but IMHO is seems REALLY short sighted to use that as your catalyst for yes or no. After all, if AP is a key part of your purchase decision, one marginalizes that by purchasing a legacy version - you're in effect, contradicting your reasons for not buying an AP2 car (not withstanding those people that don't have any interest in AP functionality growing beyond what it is in AP1 today).

Tesla has addressed practically everything that has come across their plate as a deficiency in their product as advertised. Moreover they are selling AP2 as fully autonomous driving capable and backing it with a statement that says if its not, they will update your car to the then standard - this is something that they didn't do with the original AP1 cars.

 

[gearchruncher]

Tesla has addressed practically everything that has come across their plate as a deficiency in their product as advertised.

Practically every deficiency advertised?

AP2 was supposed to do what AP1 did by December 2016. EAP features were supposed to begin to roll out in December too. In what way have they addressed those? We don't even have the first of those and they're 11 months into the HW2 release!

Where are auto wipers? Where is reading speed limit signs? Where is auto lane change? Where is auto highway exit? Where is enhanced summon? Where is the advertised ability handle tighter roads than AP1? These are all things on their sales literature.

And all of that is flat out ignoring FSD.

 

[Yinn]

But what puzzles me is the Autosteer behavior I saw in maintaining the lane just as good as AP1 in straight stretches, curves, construction zones with bots rather than lines etc.. compared to a few here who seem to be having trouble the moment they turn on AP.

My experience is the same. I'm not quite sure why there's such a large difference. My driving is 10% rural, 70% highway, the rest local with very minimal city driving. On the highway, I use almost exclusively my EAP. It handles traffic well, including merging traffic which AP1 does not handle well. It handles interconnections (ie, multiple lane highway connectors/ramps, and even single highway connectors IF they are not sharp and the car is able to maintain highway speeds) But it did not handle intersections well. It didn't follow the lead car the entire way through the intersection and wanted to go right.

Where is reading speed limit signs?

My AP2 X reads signs..I first noticed it when it didn't change on my screen. I reported a bug into Tesla. Since then, I've tested this driving past multiple signs thinking it may be GPS based. I've noticed when the sign is blocked from view, it doesn't change until the next sign is encountered.

Where is auto lane change?

Depends on your definition, still needs to be triggered by the turn signal, but mine moves on it's own otherwise just like AP1 does.

Where is the advertised ability handle tighter roads than AP1?

If you've driven extensively AP1, or side by side as in my case. I can say AP2 definitely handles "tighter roads" aka local roads and especially those that are unmarked - typically tighter rural roads with no shoulders significantly better. My AP1 doesn't acknowledge these roads, my AP2 tries very hard to determine "lines" based on the end of the road, tar markings, and road curvature. I don't trust it at ALL, but it is available.

Practically every deficiency advertised?
Where are auto wipers?.

This is the single thing that upsets me the most. Every time I miss my AP1, it's raining. I'll also give you the rest.[/QUOTE]

 

[outie]

Tesla has addressed practically everything that has come across their plate as a deficiency in their product as advertised.

This is definitely true and no doubt about it. They advertised AP1 that could do complicated summon on private road to meet and greet you. At the end they addressed this by removing the said feature from the website.

 

[alcibiades]

My AP2 X reads signs.

You'd think they'd put this in the release notes.

 

[Yinn]

You'd think they'd put this in the release notes.

You would, I feel as if the release notes are getting worse and worse. All I see nowadays is Minor Improvements. I spend the next day trying to figure out the changes.

Feel free to test this out on your own, but it seems to be consistent on my S and X. I am surprised though that they don't back it up with GPS. There's several stretches where if I miss a sign, I get stuck at 35mph using AP until I can read the next 50mph sign. That gets annoying after a couple of times.

 

[alcibiades]

Feel free to test this out on your own, but it seems to be consistent on my S and X. I am surprised though that they don't back it up with GPS. There's several stretches where if I miss a sign, I get stuck at 35mph using AP until I can read the next 50mph sign. That gets annoying after a couple of times.

Oh, honey.

 

[skilly]

Practically every deficiency advertised?

AP2 was supposed to do what AP1 did by December 2016. EAP features were supposed to begin to roll out in December too. In what way have they addressed those? We don't even have the first of those and they're 11 months into the HW2 release!

Where are auto wipers? Where is reading speed limit signs? Where is auto lane change? Where is auto highway exit? Where is enhanced summon? Where is the advertised ability handle tighter roads than AP1? These are all things on their sales literature.

And all of that is flat out ignoring FSD.

Aside from the auto wipers, the term beta means not production ready. And, really, those will be addressed.

The sales literature isn't inaccurate to say these features aren't coming - for example, AP2 does manage tighter roadways and read highway signs at this point, so your comments are already outdated. Wait a little longer and the list will disappear and more enhanced features will come. And, to clarify my statement in general, I wasn't being specific to the current issues but rather Tesla's track record - by and large they address things, but just not always at the speed of a customer complaint. Moreover, I simply can't imagine that a sales representative was deceptive about the current status of AP2, or some amount of due diligence wasn't applied for what is an expensive auto purchase.

This is like deja vu...when I purchased my 2014 AP1 car, the same themes of arguments were cited ...initially it was not even available for cars equipped with the hardware and then, it was. The development wasn't fast enough, advanced enough, etc. Then there were those horribly upset with having purchased just short of the cut off for AP functionality.

Im not drinking Tesla koolaid. Rather,Im just sharing my own perspective. I wouldn't return my car for this known temporary shortfall nor defer a purchase for them.

#firstworldproblems

 

[Yinn]

Oh, honey.

You're right, surprised wasn't the right word. I should have said, I can't understand why they didn't use GPS to back up the functionality.

 

[alcibiades]

The flash of the news is that AP2 does not read highway signs.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@skilly You (wrongly) assume AP1 promises and ramp-up were somehow comparable to AP2. They were not. AP2 is in much worse shape both relatively and absolutely speaking.

AP1 was/is excellent for its day and age. AP2, well, not.

Also, no AP2 does not read highway signs. All you get is an often-wrong database (the new database is artrocious IMO).

What I do agree with is, certainly AP2 will get better one day. Some day.

 

[chillaban]

@skilly You (wrongly) assume AP1 promises and ramp-up were somehow comparable to AP2. They were not. AP2 is in much worse shape both relatively and absolutely speaking.

AP1 was/is excellent for its day and age. AP2, well, not.

Also, no AP2 does not read highway signs. All you get is an often-wrong database (the new database is artrocious IMO).

What I do agree with is, certainly AP2 will get better one day. Some day.

Really, though? Looking at some of the videos from Oct 2015 (a year after AP1 HW), maybe at that point it's roughly equivalent to what 2017.28-2017.34 are doing today, but it still seemed to exit-dive, not offer anything on single-divider roads, and require quite some disengagement:

I should also mention: I test drove AP1 right after it was enabled, and walked away unimpressed and did not buy a Tesla until more than a year later. The difference between those two test drives was night and day. My recollection was that AP1 when it first was enabled was somewhat smooth, but did not offer itself most of the times, and still smoothly made fundamentally dangerous mistakes like steering towards oncoming cars in "blue car mode" on 2 lane roads because it lost the center line and thinks the oncoming car is something it should follow…

I don't think the ramp-up for AP2 has been slower than AP1. Honestly, far the opposite. Considering they started from zero and are where they are after less than a year, compared to taking a several-years-in-development vendor product and still taking a year to deliver initial AutoSteer and another year or so to deliver smooth/reliable autosteer… AP2 is progressing quite quickly. In no way does that excuse the way it was marketed and the way initial AP2 purchasers were misled into thinking it was much more ready…

 

[skilly]

@skilly You (wrongly) assume AP1 promises and ramp-up were somehow comparable to AP2. They were not. AP2 is in much worse shape both relatively and absolutely speaking.

AP1 was/is excellent for its day and age. AP2, well, not.

Also, no AP2 does not read highway signs. All you get is an often-wrong database (the new database is artrocious IMO).

What I do agree with is, certainly AP2 will get better one day. Some day.

I don't think I ever said AP1 and AP2 ramp up were the same or comparable aside from the "feedback" coming from TMC at the moment. Thats just my poor writing skills allowing you to misinterpret my intent

That said, the parallel with AP1 is the rhetoric about how bad things are. They both operate very differently; more specifically, one works and the other doesn't. Really, f I were Tesla, I probably would have scaled back the release or poured more resources into getting it right. After all that is how the AP1 cars were delivered - they held back the release entirely.

I think we all agree in the end, that its not where it should be. The parallel circumstance for me is that I didn't buy my AP1 car for AP either - I see the word beta and know better than to base my purchase on that feature. The sales people were pretty clear too - AP2 is not par with AP1 and certainly not to be trusted. I wouldn't (didn't) hold back on my purchase because of its current state. It, like other Tesla advancements will improve and for the time being, while its a step backwards from my previous creature comforts in an AP1 car, I will take over more of the driving than I was previously doing.

 

[alcibiades]

The sales people were pretty clear too - AP2 is not par with AP1 and certainly not to be trusted.

To be clear, you mean the sales people with whom you spoke.