July 2023 and AP1 is still a better driving experience on Interstates than FSDb

[mtndrew1]

That's not my experience---I have found the recent releases of FSDb on so cal freeways to now be better than standard AP stack. Sometimes it does change lanes too much and so I use the 'minimal lane changes' button which helps calm it down.

Never had an AP1 car though.

Try reformatting your USB drive and recalibrating cameras?

Oh I’ve been doing the FSD BS for two years now; I’m well versed. Cameras are good, I’ve recalibrated them a dozen times, yada yada.

The issue isn’t perception; FSD does a fine job of seeing the world around it. The issue is that I can no longer disable navigation based lane changes and the navigation is so very wrong that it makes FSD on the freeway unusable.

On the 110 freeway, every single day, it decides mid route that I should get off the freeway, drive 200 feet, and get back on the freeway. Every day. Of course that’s absurd so in the past I would just ignore the car’s request to change lanes and follow the route but now I can’t and FSD is aggressive in trying to comply with its stupidity.

I have a dozen such examples that I’ve been working around for years by ignoring NoA requests but now I can’t. If the car wants to follow a route on FSD highway AP it’s going to happen, logic be damned.

Once the FSD software stack is applied to regular single-lane autopilot and NoA it should be great.

It’s ironic that the actual perception and in-lane performance of FSDb on the freeway is very good (on my car) but I can’t use it because of this absurd limitation.

 

[jgs]

PS. Don't mean to gloat but I kinda have to. AP1 on my S85D was basically free. It was included as a part of the Tech Package on late 2014 and early 2015 builds, before Tesla rearranged the options and broke "Autopilot Convenience Features" out separately. Almost everybody configured the Tech Package on their cars in those days, to the point where cars that didn't were marked specially as exceptions on the assembly line.

Yeah, that's what I'm still driving, early 2015 S85D, and yes I agree with all the comments about AP1 still being the gold standard (my wife's car is AP2.5).

Also, anything from the AP1 era is going to have free Supercharging.

 

[Shuttlecraft X]

I’ve been road tripping my FSDb MX for the past 9 months or so and it’s aggravating at times but I felt it did as well as AP1. Just road tripped with my AP1 MX and wow is it better than FSDb.

No phantom braking
Selectable and relatively consistent following distance
Doesn’t change lanes for no reason
Lane changes happen quickly when initiated with stalk
Nags seem less but can’t verify

The only drawback is the air suspension rides like an ox cart compared to Raven.

Even charging seems faster than it used to be. I was pulling 179 kW long enough to get my phone and snap a pic. Curious what others think. View attachment 957466

I may have implied some of the things you've said here in another forum when comparing just the midrange AP 2.5 EAP against AP1 and got flamed for it. I own an AP 2.5 MX with EAP but have access to an AP1 MS for comparison and the leather seats and the AP experience are far superior, IMO. If I owned one of these older AP1 cars (like Bruce) I would have a hard time giving it up. In the AP1 car I didn't experience the maddening lane centering when in the far right lane and felt it was very similar to a 2023 Cadillac with SuperCruise. This lane centering BS annoys me so much when highway driving that I often downgrade to only using ARCC because it is so excruciatingly screwed up. I also feel that AP1 also deals much better with passing lanes (when they begin and end). I keep thinking I can't be the only one who feels this way and I'm surprised that even with FSDb on AP 3 hardware or above the issues still persist.

 

[DrChaos]

Oh I’ve been doing the FSD BS for two years now; I’m well versed. Cameras are good, I’ve recalibrated them a dozen times, yada yada.

OK, reformat the USB drive too, but it's probably not going to help.

The issue isn’t perception; FSD does a fine job of seeing the world around it. The issue is that I can no longer disable navigation based lane changes and the navigation is so very wrong that it makes FSD on the freeway unusable.

On the 110 freeway, every single day, it decides mid route that I should get off the freeway, drive 200 feet, and get back on the freeway. Every day. Of course that’s absurd so in the past I would just ignore the car’s request to change lanes and follow the route but now I can’t and FSD is aggressive in trying to comply with its stupidity.

I agree that the routing logic is sometimes silly.

I wonder if there is something wrong with your GPS receiver then? At one point I read for some cars there was some interference between the front camera electronics and the GPS antenna (needs to detect very weak signals from space) which is next to those cameras an a new revision improved shielding. You have a 2018 which is probably early enough it has this problem.

GPS issue since the past few weeks

Hello I have a 2018 TM3 LR with no issues with GPS until a few weeks ago, at most, a month. This happens intermittently, but regularly if that makes sense. It happens at least a couple of times daily when driving where it shows the car's current location off by anywhere between 50-500 ft or so...

teslamotorsclub.com

My FSDb has a 'minimal lane changes' button (as they know the logic is unpleasant), do you have that available, and can you try with it?

 

[jpk195]

I find it kind of interesting that in the poll, FSD is "winning", but the written comments in the thread lean fairly strongly towards AP1.

Bruce.

My guess is people with FSD who have never driven an AP1 Tesla are voting for FSD.

 

[mxnym]

I'm not gonna vote, but my experience with AP1 was in 2016, and it rocked within the lane back then. That having been said, my experience with AP2.5 was that AP1 was better IF I don't take the rocking within lanes from AP1 into consideration. AP2.5 improved, but didn't catch up with AP1 in the other relevant ways before I got the 3.0 upgrade for FSD. TBH, FSD got close enough to parity and then vision was a big step backwards again. I had FSD beta at this time, so my stack may have been different, but FSD beta was not used on limited access highways at that time. All of that having been said, I haven't had the problems on limited access highways during my road trips that other users have had, so I feel like FSD beta has reached AP1 parity on said highways (plus it has added features where AP2.5 had removed features). I understand that this clearly isn't the case for all users, and it also isn't 100% consistently true for me.

 

[aesculus]

I think I know what this vote would be:

Why Tesla’s Full Self Driving (FSD) Is Years Away From Working

 

[EatsShoots]

I’ve never driven ap1 or FSD, but based on what I read (including this thread), and see (fsd vids on YouTube), I remain confident Tesla will never have production grade FSD on hw3 (and probably not hw4).

It’s like FSD requires jumping to the moon, and no matter how much training you do you can’t ever reach it.

We will have full street autonomy in my life but half the people in this thread think Tesla has effectively made no progress on highway driving in five (?) years. Watch one video on YouTube and you’ll see Tesla pretending still that FSD will be out later this year is well into the territory of outright lying. They know it won’t be ready.

I have only basic autopilot and it’s better than what Volvo has right now, for highway and gridlock traffic.

 

[Tstyln]

I have been using AP1 since 2015 and been using FSDb for nearly 2 years.

Lets clear a couple things up, FSD is by far superior on every level, the vision it has is absolutely amazing and can capture things that I even miss (like some random person walking on the side of the road at night). Street level AP has been amazing, but not FSD yet, but learning (11.4.4 seems like it regressed for me).

Using FSD on the freeway was a different experience, gone are the days of adjusting your distance with the stalk and instead I can choose how aggressive I want it to be. FSD on the FWY almost always leads to unexpected or better yet UNWANTED lane changes. However on an FSD car you can switch from FSD back to regular Autopilot under the AP tab. You can change from FSD to AP while driving but cannot go back to FSD until you put it in park.

AP1 is much more stable at holding your lane and is just very consistent. Even when you put the turn signal on, it does a good job switching lanes without it actually seeing (just using ultrasonics).

I actually use AP1 in the streets as well, and if you have a trailing car, it does really well for red lights obviously. To be clear in the city FSD is BY FAR SUPERIRIOR in EVERY way then AP1 on the streets. On the Freeway, I would enable AP2.5 with Navigate of Autopilot turned off just so it stops changing lanes, but I wish I would get the same visuals. Just my thoughts

 

[365gtb4]

On the interstates my S85D with AP1 is much better than my 2019 Model X with FSD. The AP1 is much more reliable and less stressful. The FSD still has phantom breaking, dives to the right when passing an on ramp, is crap in bumper to bumper traffic, (so bad I don't use it). The vision only system is a joke. Radar is much better and with the AP1 radar you could see more cars ahead of you in traffic. The FSD jerks forward and stops hard in traffic. I want my money back on FSD, I got suckered by Musk.

Note, I won't buy a new S because of the FSD, the crap controls on the steering, and no sunroof. I think the car has been cheapened to point it's a pita to drive.

 

[PeterK]

I have AP1 on my 2016 X which has been a reliable highway cruiser - especially with free supercharging for life. I also have a 2020 Y with FSD and I wind up just using autopilot which is about the same as AP1. When I use Navigate On Autopilot or FSD I’m not confident in what it’s doing, eg lane changes.

My X is nearing 8 years and the end of its warranty and extended warranty coverages in March 2024, but for these and other reasons I’d rather not replace it with a new Model X - I prefer my old one. So I just got a Rivian R1S which I’m enjoying so far. Now I need to sell the X - suggestions on best place to do so?

 

[jmcdono362]

AP1 definitely has the ability to "scooch" left/right if another vehicle gets too close. My 2015 Model S does that. AP1's freeway flaws are overpasses, for which it beeps and asks you to take the wheel but doesn't phantom brake. It also doesn't like extreme rises and lows of highway, as it causes a ping pong. However, in both flaws, they are always predictable so you know when to take over.

Agree. Would love to hear alternate viewpoints as to why FSD is better than AP1 on the interstate.

People could be negative towards AP1 or FSD.

I have really tried to think how anyone could view FSD as being better. Spacing for semis, maybe some people don't care about their speed or lane choices as long as the car is doing everything, or maybe people have a bad memory of AP1 driving and it's been a while since they drove both?

That was certainly the case for me. I do not think I would have thought AP1 was better had I not driven long distances essentially back to back in both vehicles.

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[jmcdono362]

On the interstates my S85D with AP1 is much better than my 2019 Model X with FSD. The AP1 is much more reliable and less stressful. The FSD still has phantom breaking, dives to the right when passing an on ramp, is crap in bumper to bumper traffic, (so bad I don't use it). The vision only system is a joke. Radar is much better and with the AP1 radar you could see more cars ahead of you in traffic. The FSD jerks forward and stops hard in traffic. I want my money back on FSD, I got suckered by Musk.

Note, I won't buy a new S because of the FSD, the crap controls on the steering, and no sunroof. I think the car has been cheapened to point it's a pita to drive.

What's your thoughts on the EQS, besides the obvious of being ugly? It seems to have all the best qualities of an S85D, such as hatch back, opening sunroof, great driver assistance, plus a very luxurious and quiet interior.

 

[jmcdono362]

I have AP1 on my 2016 X which has been a reliable highway cruiser - especially with free supercharging for life. I also have a 2020 Y with FSD and I wind up just using autopilot which is about the same as AP1. When I use Navigate On Autopilot or FSD I’m not confident in what it’s doing, eg lane changes.

My X is nearing 8 years and the end of its warranty and extended warranty coverages in March 2024, but for these and other reasons I’d rather not replace it with a new Model X - I prefer my old one. So I just got a Rivian R1S which I’m enjoying so far. Now I need to sell the X - suggestions on best place to do so?

Have you looked into Cars and Bids? I haven't sold a car myself since 2014, but I sold 2 on auction sites (ebay) and they always sold in 1 week. You can also sell here on this forum too.

 

[Shuttlecraft X]

What's your thoughts on the EQS, besides the obvious of being ugly? It seems to have all the best qualities of an S85D, such as hatch back, opening sunroof, great driver assistance, plus a very luxurious and quiet interior.

I test drove an EQS and absolutely loved the interior. I'll admit I'm biased because I traded in a very well loved S350 for my old M3 but I think if you test drive one you'll agree that the Germans fully grasp what a luxurious interior with impeccable fit and finish is supposed to be. I also think the ride quality was better than a Lucid Air, but that's really subjective. The ambient lighting and the wall of screens feel very futuristic and the scent thingy and the massaging seats felt like being in a spa. The only let down for me was the UI. The screens are fantastic with super crisp resolution and look very modern, but holy crap the menus and sub-menus go on for days...It's very convoluted IMO. When I lurked around in the forums I saw complaints about slow/infrequent updates to the UI and complaints about finding working charging stations (similar to the Porsche Taycan), two things that keep me coming back to Tesla time and time again. It just so happens today is delivery day for my new MY which will take it's place next to my MX (which replaced my M3) and I don't regret any of these purchases.

 

[jmcdono362]

I test drove an EQS and absolutely loved the interior. I'll admit I'm biased because I traded in a very well loved S350 for my old M3 but I think if you test drive one you'll agree that the Germans fully grasp what a luxurious interior with impeccable fit and finish is supposed to be. I also think the ride quality was better than a Lucid Air, but that's really subjective. The ambient lighting and the wall of screens feel very futuristic and the scent thingy and the massaging seats felt like being in a spa. The only let down for me was the UI. The screens are fantastic with super crisp resolution and look very modern, but holy crap the menus and sub-menus go on for days...It's very convoluted IMO. When I lurked around in the forums I saw complaints about slow/infrequent updates to the UI and complaints about finding working charging stations (similar to the Porsche Taycan), two things that keep me coming back to Tesla time and time again. It just so happens today is delivery day for my new MY which will take it's place next to my MX (which replaced my M3) and I don't regret any of these purchases.

I totally agree on your assessment with the tech side. I also noticed the Mercedes system stutter a bit when moving between menus and map navigation. I could live with that but the non-starter for me is the charging network and until NACS is available and Tesla opens up their superchargers, I'm keeping my 2015 Model S!

Watch Kyle Connor's recent race to vegas video where he gets stuck (in his Lucid) in a line of cars waiting for ONE working CCS Electrify America charger. What a bleep show!

 

[365gtb4]

What's your thoughts on the EQS, besides the obvious of being ugly? It seems to have all the best qualities of an S85D, such as hatch back, opening sunroof, great driver assistance, plus a very luxurious and quiet interior.

I haven't driven one, but I've looked them over. Handsome car with great build quality and luxury. Only negative is charging system for long trips. When the infrastructure improves and they have access to the Tesla system I might switch. Otherwise it's a local car and charged at home. FYI I've driven over 150k miles on autopilot/FSD. I typically drive across the country with drives averaging 5000 miles which is easy with the Tesla charging network. Both of my current cars have unlimited lifetime free supercharging.

 

[islandbayy]

100% Agree.
I Take my AP1 MS HANDS DOWN on a long trip over my FSD Beta Model X. It's just so predictable, and RELIABLE.

 

[Zeeshan Javaid]

I agree. Got a new update 2022.8.10.16 on my MX 2016 with AP1 yesterday and it has further improved AP1. I feel noticeable difference in lane changes now. It’s much smoother than before.

 

[ngng]

I agree. Got a new update 2022.8.10.16 on my MX 2016 with AP1 yesterday and it has further improved AP1. I feel noticeable difference in lane changes now. It’s much smoother than before.

I prefer AP1, but I don't think your update has any driving improvements. My understanding is that there has not been development for ages?