Model Y Alternatives?

[ZenRockGarden]

I was originally looking at the RAV4-Prime. It drove nicely, with good low-speed torque from the electrics.

Alas, the Toyota Dealer wanted (brace yourself) $12k over MSRP just to order one.

I stared in shock, told the dealer that for the price, I could simply get a Tesla.... and then I went and did so, at MSRP +$0.

The model Y is more modern, and to my surprise is better built and finished than the RAV4 which showed signs of being in the affordable-SUV segment in places.

 

[avs007]

It is not "have to charge AND put gas in a car", the attraction is that it is OR. You can charge it, or you can put gas in it. You don't have to do both, the car is functional either way.

When people talk about this, I don't think they literally mean getting both. They mean you still have the shortcomings of both... You have limited range on electric only, becuase you have an even smaller battery than a regular EV... And you still have all the maintenance costs associated with a gas engine, becuase you still have to change the oil, filters, transmission fluids, spark plugs, etc.. And you still have all the worries of a regular EV, becuase you still have a Low Voltage system and High Voltage system, and can similarly still get screwed if your low voltage battery dies, even tho you have a gas engine, becuase it cannot be started if the Low Voltage battery is dead, because it needs the Low Voltage system to turn on the High Voltage system, and it needs the electric motor of the HV system to start the gas engine. Likewise, you can also still get screwed if the High Voltage system fails, becuase you can't start the engine with just the low voltage system.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

When people talk about this, I don't think they literally mean getting both. They mean you still have the shortcomings of both... You have limited range on electric only, becuase you have an even smaller battery than a regular EV... And you still have all the maintenance costs associated with a gas engine, becuase you still have to change the oil, filters, transmission fluids, spark plugs, etc.. And you still have all the worries of a regular EV, becuase you still have a Low Voltage system and High Voltage system, and can similarly still get screwed if your low voltage battery dies, even tho you have a gas engine, becuase it cannot be started if the Low Voltage battery is dead, because it needs the Low Voltage system to turn on the High Voltage system, and it needs the electric motor of the HV system to start the gas engine. Likewise, you can also still get screwed if the High Voltage system fails, becuase you can't start the engine with just the low voltage system.

I hear you - it's obviously less efficient and more complex to have essentially 2 drivetrains.

That said, I think there are worthy use cases for PluginHybrids - you can run them like an electric around town, exercising a ~40 mile range and recharging on a simple 220v circuit easily at night. Then you need to take a long trip and your "supercharger" network is every gas station on the planet with a "battery" that can recharge 350 miles range in 5 minutes.

I love my Tesla. But for some people I might suggest PHEV.

 

[kindofblue]

When people talk about this, I don't think they literally mean getting both. They mean you still have the shortcomings of both... You have limited range on electric only, becuase you have an even smaller battery than a regular EV... And you still have all the maintenance costs associated with a gas engine, becuase you still have to change the oil, filters, transmission fluids, spark plugs, etc.. And you still have all the worries of a regular EV, becuase you still have a Low Voltage system and High Voltage system, and can similarly still get screwed if your low voltage battery dies, even tho you have a gas engine, becuase it cannot be started if the Low Voltage battery is dead, because it needs the Low Voltage system to turn on the High Voltage system, and it needs the electric motor of the HV system to start the gas engine. Likewise, you can also still get screwed if the High Voltage system fails, becuase you can't start the engine with just the low voltage system.

We've had a 2017 Chevy Volt for 6 years this spring and maintenance has consisted of oil changes every 24 months. And the only time we need to gas it up is when we have taken it on long trips. Just sayin'.

 

[DanDi58]

We've had a 2017 Chevy Volt for 6 years this spring and maintenance has consisted of oil changes every 24 months. And the only time we need to gas it up is when we have taken it on long trips. Just sayin'.

Well, the Volt isn’t really a hybrid, in that the gas engine is a generator providing electricity, not a ‘drive’ engine like in a hybrid. It’s more like an EV with a range extender. I was always a little surprised thatvGM didn’t make, for example, an Equinox-type with this drivetrain.

 

[DanDi58]

When people talk about this, I don't think they literally mean getting both. They mean you still have the shortcomings of both... You have limited range on electric only, becuase you have an even smaller battery than a regular EV... And you still have all the maintenance costs associated with a gas engine, becuase you still have to change the oil, filters, transmission fluids, spark plugs, etc.. And you still have all the worries of a regular EV, becuase you still have a Low Voltage system and High Voltage system, and can similarly still get screwed if your low voltage battery dies, even tho you have a gas engine, becuase it cannot be started if the Low Voltage battery is dead, because it needs the Low Voltage system to turn on the High Voltage system, and it needs the electric motor of the HV system to start the gas engine. Likewise, you can also still get screwed if the High Voltage system fails, becuase you can't start the engine with just the low voltage system.

That was kind of my point, which I didn’t elaborate was well as you did.

 

[avs007]

We've had a 2017 Chevy Volt for 6 years this spring and maintenance has consisted of oil changes every 24 months. And the only time we need to gas it up is when we have taken it on long trips. Just sayin'.

GM also says to change the transmission fluid every 100,000 miles too, but I've looked at GM's transmission fluids at many different intervals, and can tell you 100k miles is way past the fluid's life... Frequent start/stop cycles of the engine, particularly if you don't let it warm up, is really hard on the oil. Further GM's OEM oil filters aren't that great as many of them don't have anti-drainback valves like Mobil-1 filters. And don't go to quickie lube places, they use el-cheapo filters with paper end caps, that can quickly go into bypass mode... Anyways, these types things combined with lots of cold starts can put a lot of wear on the valve train, which is why you usually hear them chattering/clicking until oil reaches them. So I'd be changing the oil more frequently than 24 months. And for sure use a quality group IV synthetic oil.

 

[charlesoris]

I consider myself a "young" senior and with that, I can no longer tolerate long drives and short stops to refuel. I am retired and I am not really pressed for time. I would think that your parents will eventually appreciate an EV, rather than ICE or PHEV with their complexities and maintenance cost.

 

[cu260r6]

Check out the Kia EV6. It's due for release imminently and offers nearly the range and comparable charging as the MY for a significant discount. They're already available in Europe and Canada and are winning converts.

 

[damonbrodie]

RAV4 Prime is the clear winner on this list. There are no negatives to buying this vehicle if you can locate one at MSRP.

It's hands down the most reliable. Should have the least amount of depreciation over several years. It has more than enough battery-only range for a typical daily commute. And it has a phenomenal range when using gas (600 miles). It's also surprisingly quick. I believe it also gets like 42mpg in hybrid mode.

Longer term I'd be worried about maintenance on such a complicated drive train.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Check out the Kia EV6. It's due for release imminently and offers nearly the range and comparable charging as the MY for a significant discount. They're already available in Europe and Canada and are winning converts.

If you plan to travel, the Supercharger network is a massive difference right now

 

[voxel]

Longer term I'd be worried about maintenance on such a complicated drive train.

This is just FUD. The Toyota hybrid system is proven and the Prime simply uses a larger battery and larger motors. It’s simplified compared to pure gas drivetrains with complex transmissions and mechanical based AWD.

Non Tesla folk poo-poo the Tesla EV drivetrain but we know how reliable it is.

 

[Daekwan]

Longer term I'd be worried about maintenance on such a complicated drive train.

The Prius hybrid type platform is one of the most proven in the world. I would long-term trust a 10-year-old Toyota over a new Tesla in terms of reliability. And I'm not even joking. If I had to bet on a single-vehicle being able to last 30 years with no major issues.. Toyota is hands down the front runner. And in practically every vehicle category they participate in.

You go to any city in America and Prius hybrid taxis and commuters cars dominate everything with several hundreds of thousands of miles on them. Even now, 20+ years later it remains one of the best commuter cars you can purchase.

 

[damonbrodie]

The Prius hybrid type platform is one of the most proven in the world. I would long-term trust a 10-year-old Toyota over a new Tesla in terms of reliability. And I'm not even joking. If I had to bet on a single-vehicle being able to last 30 years with no major issues.. Toyota is hands down the front runner. And in practically every vehicle category they participate in.

You go to any city in America and Prius hybrid taxis and commuters cars dominate everything with several hundreds of thousands of miles on them. Even now, 20+ years later it remains one of the best commuter cars you can purchase.

I wasn't questioning the quality, but the cost of maintenance. You effectively have two complete powertrains that you are maintaining vs. the very simple maintenance on an EV.

 

[MG535]

The maintenance schedule and associated charges for Audi EV maintenance is not cheap.

Plus if you’re planning to own long term, definitely go with Toyota. The number of 1st generation Priuses still running around on what was once considered unproven technology is staggering.

 

[cu260r6]

If you plan to travel, the Supercharger network is a massive difference right now

The infrastructure bill passed last year should address that soon for non-tesla folks. Where I live in Denver, finding a fast charging station isn't an issue now, but I've never traveled cross county in an EV. The Kia allegedly gets 210 miles worth of charge in 18 minutes on the non supercharger network which is pretty pretty pretty impressive. I'm waiting for its US release to see if a MY is worth it.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Longer term I'd be worried about maintenance on such a complicated drive train.

The infrastructure bill passed last year should address that soon for non-tesla folks. Where I live in Denver, finding a fast charging station isn't an issue now, but I've never traveled cross county in an EV. The Kia allegedly gets 210 miles worth of charge in 18 minutes on the non supercharger network which is pretty pretty pretty impressive. I'm waiting for its US release to see if a MY is worth it.

I hope the infrastructure bill helps, but based on the Electrify-America effort which VW was forced to dump $2B into creating charging stations... the results were rather unimpressive since unlike Tesla, VW didn't really care how good or effective the charging stations were - they just had to build them and spend the budget - rather similar to what the infrastructure bill will do.

The result was a fleet of non-optimally placed stations in questionable state of maintenance and repair.

Example: In my relatively small town, Tesla hosts 4 large supercharger stations including one that's a mile from my house and offers 17 stalls at 150 amps and $0.31/wh. In contrast EA's $2B effort has purchased exactly one site, in a crowded bank of america parking lot, with 4 stalls that cost $0.48/wh unless you sign up for their $4/mo service fee which drops you to $0.32/wh (plus the $4). When I drove by, 2 of the 4 stalls were taped off and not in service.

Tesla views supercharger stations as a brand-enhancing non-profit center. They WANT the stations in useful locations, they want them well maintained and with useful local services for the visitors so it's a delightful experience.

I am thrilled that the infrastructure bill will increase the supply of public stations. That's good for america. I am also realistic enough to expect them to be far inferior to the dedicated Tesla network, and to struggle to keep pace with the ramp of everyone-but-Tesla EV's coming online.

 

[N1L CO2]

I echo the kudos posts about Tesla having the edge when it comes to charging network. It is only going to get better. They've already filed for certain patents and trademarks for Tesla cafe's at future supercharging stations for better charging experience along with high-speed wifi hotspots. I charge at home 90% of the time, with energy generated by Tesla solar, but I look forward to pulling into a Tesla Cafe during longer trips cross country and such to take a load off and relax while my Y is charged up. And this is also why Tesla sold another million cars last year!

 

[DanDi58]

I hope the infrastructure bill helps, but based on the Electrify-America effort which VW was forced to dump $2B into creating charging stations... the results were rather unimpressive since unlike Tesla, VW didn't really care how good or effective the charging stations were - they just had to build them and spend the budget - rather similar to what the infrastructure bill will do.

The result was a fleet of non-optimally placed stations in questionable state of maintenance and repair.

Example: In my relatively small town, Tesla hosts 4 large supercharger stations including one that's a mile from my house and offers 17 stalls at 150 amps and $0.31/wh. In contrast EA's $2B effort has purchased exactly one site, in a crowded bank of america parking lot, with 4 stalls that cost $0.48/wh unless you sign up for their $4/mo service fee which drops you to $0.32/wh (plus the $4). When I drove by, 2 of the 4 stalls were taped off and not in service.

Tesla views supercharger stations as a brand-enhancing non-profit center. They WANT the stations in useful locations, they want them well maintained and with useful local services for the visitors so it's a delightful experience.

I am thrilled that the infrastructure bill will increase the supply of public stations. That's good for america. I am also realistic enough to expect them to be far inferior to the dedicated Tesla network, and to struggle to keep pace with the ramp of everyone-but-Tesla EV's coming online.

Yes, YouTube is filled with folks that are doing road trips with non-Tesla EV's, and the charging issues are pretty depressing.

 

[cu260r6]

I hope the infrastructure bill helps, but based on the Electrify-America effort which VW was forced to dump $2B into creating charging stations... the results were rather unimpressive since unlike Tesla, VW didn't really care how good or effective the charging stations were - they just had to build them and spend the budget - rather similar to what the infrastructure bill will do.

The result was a fleet of non-optimally placed stations in questionable state of maintenance and repair.

Example: In my relatively small town, Tesla hosts 4 large supercharger stations including one that's a mile from my house and offers 17 stalls at 150 amps and $0.31/wh. In contrast EA's $2B effort has purchased exactly one site, in a crowded bank of america parking lot, with 4 stalls that cost $0.48/wh unless you sign up for their $4/mo service fee which drops you to $0.32/wh (plus the $4). When I drove by, 2 of the 4 stalls were taped off and not in service.

Tesla views supercharger stations as a brand-enhancing non-profit center. They WANT the stations in useful locations, they want them well maintained and with useful local services for the visitors so it's a delightful experience.

I am thrilled that the infrastructure bill will increase the supply of public stations. That's good for america. I am also realistic enough to expect them to be far inferior to the dedicated Tesla network, and to struggle to keep pace with the ramp of everyone-but-Tesla EV's coming online.

They say the funds will be spent with a wholistic approach and geared toward rural areas to electrify the nation and facilitate long distance travel. We will see, but that's the goal. Chargers and cost have come a long way since VW's scattered efforts.