My biggest surprise? They didn't show the seats folded for max cargo

[yesup]

Not conveying the change in design and specification to the early buyers with deposits down is an ethical issue. Plain and simple.

Everyone who put the deposit down is fully aware that no specification has been set in stone yet.
They obvious encountered engineering difficulties with the second row seats and the falcon wing door.

The deposit is fully refundable, so there is no ethical issue at all. If they changed the specification after you configured your car, then I can see your point.
Right now, if you don't like final product, just get your money back. Plain and simple.

 

[Tam]

The deposit is fully refundable, so there is no ethical issue at all.

It may not involve with monetary deposits at all!

The ethical part involves with trust, worthiness, credibility and truthfulness.

Tesla gave us the perception that foldable second row seats were in the plan.

Tesla has never denied that the plan for foldable second row seats have been aborted.

As a matter of fact, instead of denying it, Tesla reinforced that plan again in an e-mail.

Officially, Elon never said in yesterday presentation that the plan for foldable second row seats failed.

He praised the second row seats yesterday but he never said that they could not fold flat.

The engineering way is to tell us how other companies could do it and Tesla brightest and best could not.

For many of us, it is not about refundable deposits plain and simple.

The ethical way is to help us to make informed decisions: Model X's maximum rear trunk depth/length dimension in numbers as compared with Model S.

The ethical way is to come out the closet and tell us what happened.

 

[gizmoboy]

The more I think about it, the more your answer makes complete sense. U-Haul will rent you an enclosed cargo trailer with interior dimensions of 11'7" x 6' x 5'5" for $30 a day .. Home Depot has utility trailer rentals as well. For the rare occurrence that I need to haul something large it seems like renting a cheap trailer for a day will work just fine. I know some people wanted to put a mattress in the back, but I don't ever see myself doing that. I'll either get a hotel where I am going or pitch a tent if I am camping. The Sylvansport Go camping trailer would also be a pretty good option for camping.

Bingo. Why build for the 1% use case which introduces compromises for the 99% use case?

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I can understand where you are coming from. I wont say its unethical as it was a prototype and it was a mere representation of the car they wanted to make. Features can be added and features can be dropped. Its unfortunate that a lot of people wont be buying X due to folding issue. Hope they find a nice car. Maybe Model 3.:smile:

We have a lot of unsubstantiated conjecture being stated as fact here...

I'm not in the market, but I do own an SUV, and if the same car didn't fold flat in the second row, I wouldn't care (and I have folded them flat more than once in the 5 years Ive owned it).

If I was in the market for an X (and I'm not), this would be a non-factor for me. But I have no idea how many are like me or are like those who consider it a deal-breaker. Nor, I believe, does anyone else yet, assertions of impending Tesla doom notwithstanding.

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It may not involve with monetary deposits at all!

The ethical part involves with trust, worthiness, credibility and truthfulness.

Tesla gave us the perception that foldable second row seats were in the plan.

Tesla has never denied that the plan for foldable second row seats have been aborted.

As a matter of fact, instead of denying it, Tesla reinforced that plan again in an e-mail.

Officially, Elon never said in yesterday presentation that the plan for foldable second row seats failed.

He praised the second row seats yesterday but he never said that they could not fold flat.

The engineering way is to tell us how other companies could do it and Tesla brightest and best could not.

For many of us, it is not about refundable deposits plain and simple.

The ethical way is to help us to make informed decisions: Model X's maximum rear trunk depth/length dimension in numbers as compared with Model S.

The ethical way is to come out the closet and tell us what happened.

I'm sure they made a thousand decisions that changed things as they developed the X. How many of those rise to the level of "ethically should have been disclosed in a pre-release product development process (or discussed at launch)"?

Products change during development. It's virtually unheard of for companies to publicly track and justify their design decision making process (and it's competitively disadvantageous to do so in many cases).

I think considering this to be unethical is questionable at best.

 

[X-Wing]

As I said, whether the seats fold flat or not doesn't really affect me. But other perspective buyers could've relied what Tesla showed in previous presentations to make their purchase decision.

The opportunity cost for them being lost interest on the deposit and/or decision to purchase a competing product that they can enjoy sooner without the wait. What we have here is classic bait and switch IMHO.

 

[yobigd20]

As I said, whether the seats fold flat or not doesn't really affect me. But other perspective buyers could've relied what Tesla showed in previous presentations to make their purchase decision.

The opportunity cost for them being lost interest on the deposit and/or decision to purchase a competing product that they can enjoy sooner without the wait. What we have here is classic bait and switch IMHO.

View attachment 96168

the S will fit a single mattress lying down (75" and you have about 76-78") but in the X you only have 60" when the second row is pushed forward. another feature lost.

 

[CarlK]

It may not involve with monetary deposits at all!

The ethical part involves with trust, worthiness, credibility and truthfulness.

Tesla gave us the perception that foldable second row seats were in the plan.

Tesla has never denied that the plan for foldable second row seats have been aborted.

As a matter of fact, instead of denying it, Tesla reinforced that plan again in an e-mail.

Officially, Elon never said in yesterday presentation that the plan for foldable second row seats failed.

He praised the second row seats yesterday but he never said that they could not fold flat.

The engineering way is to tell us how other companies could do it and Tesla brightest and best could not.

For many of us, it is not about refundable deposits plain and simple.

The ethical way is to help us to make informed decisions: Model X's maximum rear trunk depth/length dimension in numbers as compared with Model S.

The ethical way is to come out the closet and tell us what happened.

There is no ethics involved. This is how the free market works. Tesla need to constantly improve and to make most people get what they want instead of try to make everyone happy which is imposible anyway. It's just like you can always cancel the reservation if you see something better coming along without having to explain to them why. Nobody promised anyone anything.

As for the reason my best guess is it's not because they hate you. That should be good enough. Any other explanation would not make you to feel any better or worse.

 

[jdb]

With all due respect I don't understand all the angst about second row seats and not being able to stow mattresses or furniture or large plywood in the MX. Come on, it's a $100K plus world class vehicle, which I certainly plan to purchase with my production reservation in the 600's to share HPWC in garage with Sig MS. I happen to haul furniture and plywood (not mattresses) and lots of other stuff but do it in my Chevy pickup, would never want to use expensive vehicle. Never can satisfy all of the people all of the time. But MS now with 35,000 miles by far best car we have ever had, look forward to Rock Paper Scissors with wife to see who gets to drive the MX. Cheers.

 

[adiggs]

As I said, whether the seats fold flat or not doesn't really affect me. But other perspective buyers could've relied what Tesla showed in previous presentations to make their purchase decision.

The opportunity cost for them being lost interest on the deposit and/or decision to purchase a competing product that they can enjoy sooner without the wait. What we have here is classic bait and switch IMHO.

View attachment 96168

This particular slide from that particular presentation has been on my mind a lot the last few days. On one hand, a lot of my fire to get a Model X ties back directly to this photo (along with a substantial deposit and a 3 year wait). So having this particular feature change now that it's time to configure is .. disappointing doesn't really cover it.

On the other hand - the same thought process and inspiration that led to the Model X deposit also led to a 6 month hunt for a Roadster. And it's pretty much 2.5 years now of driving electric that has resulted. So my primary objective identified a little over 3 years ago was accomplished 2.5 years ago - shift the bulk of our household mileage from a 35 mpg gasser to electric (90% plus). And having the Roadster has made the wait for Model X be a lot less painful. It's also making it easy for me to make a rational decision about whether to carry through on the Model X order or wait (a little or a lot more).


My own feeling is that for $130-145k, it can easily be the best thing of its ilk around - for me, it's still "settle for". At that price, there's no "settle-for". If I'm settling, then I can "settle" for a used Leaf, or heck a new Soul EV for less than the deposit. Heck - this change may save my wife and I more than the cost of our first house! Awesome!

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Its really geared as a more of a mini-van or large family SUV. Not for someone who cares about bringing home lumber or carrying paddle boards.

Isn't that what pickups are for?

 

[AudubonB]

TRAILER-as-Solution

As I wrote elsewhere, I also was in the camp of those who were hoping for the impossible: that TM was going to roll out a SUV/CUV that had all the load-carrying features of a pickup (because I, like these others, would prefer said pickup to a CUV). But in response to those who are saying "go rent a trailer!":

I own:

* a military trailer (M101), 8'2" with ?,000 lbs cap;
* a canoe-hauling trailer, capacity eight canoes or kayaks (and neat for stick lumber, too)
* two snowmobile trailers (about 10' x 7'; 2,000 lb cap), with extenders for hauling my raft
* a 20' 10,000 lb cap. car-hauling trailer
* a 14' 14,000 lb cap. dump trailer
* a 30' 21,000 lb gooseneck trailer with an additional 8' deck-over bed

yet, with those, there are many, many times I vastly would prefer to - and do - throw items inside my vehicle and not drag out any trailer. So, just because one could go rent a trailer (or select one from my back-40) to perform a function, in absolutely no way makes it the desired choice.

 

[vandacca]

Bingo. Why build for the 1% use case which introduces compromises for the 99% use case?

Judging by the reaction to the lack of folding 2nd row, I would predict that the 1% you're referencing is a significant under-estimate. And I don't see how having a folding-seat option would create any compromises for the rest of the use-cases. A customer could choose fold or sculpture.

But I am 100% certain that which ever side you fall on (fold or sculpture) having more sales of the Model-X would be a good thing for everyone that owns a Tesla vehicle and/or Tesla stock. A folding seat option should increase sales.

 

[SW2Fiddler]

the S will fit a single mattress lying down (75" and you have about 76-78") but in the X you only have 60" when the second row is pushed forward. another feature lost.

Hold on.
How much space if said mattress rests on top of the second row's headrests? (it surely won't hurt 'em) When slid forward, they aren't being used for people after all. I await an actual trial with an actual mattress. Haven't heard about the Width of the cargo area, either.
When I haul PVC in my S, I don't have a passenger so I use the front passenger space.

Yeah, if you require to lie down on the mattress, looks like that's out...

 

[ankitmishra]

It may not involve with monetary deposits at all!

The ethical part involves with trust, worthiness, credibility and truthfulness.

Tesla gave us the perception that foldable second row seats were in the plan.

Tesla has never denied that the plan for foldable second row seats have been aborted.

As a matter of fact, instead of denying it, Tesla reinforced that plan again in an e-mail.

Officially, Elon never said in yesterday presentation that the plan for foldable second row seats failed.

He praised the second row seats yesterday but he never said that they could not fold flat.

The engineering way is to tell us how other companies could do it and Tesla brightest and best could not.

For many of us, it is not about refundable deposits plain and simple.

The ethical way is to help us to make informed decisions: Model X's maximum rear trunk depth/length dimension in numbers as compared with Model S.

The ethical way is to come out the closet and tell us what happened.

But why be discontent only when a feature is removed? Breach of trust?
Then shouldn't addition of new feature be also breach of trust? Hmm. Too deep, too deep.

 

[Bluespark]

Did anyone measure from the floor to the ceiling? Perhaps space lost in length is made up with increase height. It is interesting that they were able to create a frunk that is wider than the MS's. Did anyone measure the width of the trunk area? Perhaps that is large too.

Honestly guys and gals, there is a lot of bitching and moaning here and you don't even have the exact dimensions for which you are complaining about..

 

[Cyclone]

This particular slide from that particular presentation has been on my mind a lot the last few days. On one hand, a lot of my fire to get a Model X ties back directly to this photo (along with a substantial deposit and a 3 year wait). So having this particular feature change now that it's time to configure is .. disappointing doesn't really cover it.

On the other hand - the same thought process and inspiration that led to the Model X deposit also led to a 6 month hunt for a Roadster. And it's pretty much 2.5 years now of driving electric that has resulted. So my primary objective identified a little over 3 years ago was accomplished 2.5 years ago - shift the bulk of our household mileage from a 35 mpg gasser to electric (90% plus). And having the Roadster has made the wait for Model X be a lot less painful. It's also making it easy for me to make a rational decision about whether to carry through on the Model X order or wait (a little or a lot more).


My own feeling is that for $130-145k, it can easily be the best thing of its ilk around - for me, it's still "settle for". At that price, there's no "settle-for". If I'm settling, then I can "settle" for a used Leaf, or heck a new Soul EV for less than the deposit. Heck - this change may save my wife and I more than the cost of our first house! Awesome!

Any particular reason to not get an S then instead of settling for a Leaf or Soul?

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Hold on.
How much space if said mattress rests on top of the second row's headrests? (it surely won't hurt 'em) When slid forward, they aren't being used for people after all. I await an actual trial with an actual mattress. Haven't heard about the Width of the cargo area, either.
When I haul PVC in my S, I don't have a passenger so I use the front passenger space.

Yeah, if you require to lie down on the mattress, looks like that's out...

Best mattresses for Model S

 

[NigelM]

Hold on.
How much space if said mattress rests on top of the second row's headrests? (it surely won't hurt 'em) When slid forward, they aren't being used for people after all. I await an actual trial with an actual mattress. Haven't heard about the Width of the cargo area, either.
When I haul PVC in my S, I don't have a passenger so I use the front passenger space.

Yeah, if you require to lie down on the mattress, looks like that's out...

Pythagorean theorem:

Mattress is 75" long, if cargo bed is 60" then the rise must be 45". This doesn't allow for the thickness of the mattress though.

I'd recommend a futon you can roll up.

 

[X-Wing]

There is no ethics involved. This is how the free market works.

A free market based on deception and misrepresentation. How civilized and wonderful.

Cue music, What A Wonderful World - Louis Armstrong

 

[omarsultan]

A free market based on deception and misrepresentation. How civilized and wonderful.

Cue music, What A Wonderful World - Louis Armstrong

 

[tinm]

I see you're doing a little bit of armchair engineering. How would you handle it, keeping in mind cost, weight, and manufacturing concerns? Transmit all that wirelessly? It could be done, but would be a rather expensive solution that would eat into margins.

Are you saying that given the choice of having an opaque roof that goes all the way across, vs. a windshield that stretches past the top of your head (but with a thin wireway that goes straight back), you'd choose the opaque roof?

No, I'm saying I'm really disappointed that Tesla went with that "thin wireway" as you call it. It's ugly. It's dumb-looking. It has no business being there. That's what I am saying. I didn't say any more than that.

 

[Owner]

No, its nice to have a large INTERIOR space.

Having driven with too many things over the years outside, no matter how well they are tied, it is a pain to get them up there (in the case of a roof) and deal with the wind.

Isn't that what pickups are for?

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I think the point is for those of us without a gaggle of kids, the X doesn't make that much sense.

We have the S, it has a decent amount of cargo space but not enough for everything. So why bother with the X?

With all due respect I don't understand all the angst about second row seats and not being able to stow mattresses or furniture or large plywood in the MX. Come on, it's a $100K plus world class vehicle, which I certainly plan to purchase with my production reservation in the 600's to share HPWC in garage with Sig MS. I happen to haul furniture and plywood (not mattresses) and lots of other stuff but do it in my Chevy pickup, would never want to use expensive vehicle. Never can satisfy all of the people all of the time. But MS now with 35,000 miles by far best car we have ever had, look forward to Rock Paper Scissors with wife to see who gets to drive the MX. Cheers.