New Tesla/EV owner and first-time FSD beta user - is this a joke?

[JohnB007]

Very true. And this is why I think Elon is doing himself and Tesla a disservice by hyping up FSD so much. By definition, it is going to not live up to the hype.

For the record, my own expectations are fairly low. Back in late 2017 / early 2018 when I ordered my car, there were quite a few people ordering FSD (at the then even high price of $8000 or $9000), but I figured it still had many years to go before it was ready for prime time, and that I would upgrade later if it looked close. I did buy EAP under the mistaken impression that I could summon the car into my garage to charge it (something it still can't do today, even with the simple "just back up" summon), and because I did want the ability to change lanes with my turn signal--it was a bit more than I thought it was worth, but I figured I was investing in FSD development (at that time, Tesla was not in the strong financial position it is today). When there was a $2K FSD fire sale, I did grab it then because I figured it would never be that cheap again.

I am reasonably happy with what I would call enhanced autopilot behavior, although in some ways, I think it has taken some steps backwards since I first got it. They finally did improve handling unmarked merge lanes a release or two ago, but beyond that, it's quirky behavior regarding lane changes (even though I manually select Minimal Lane Changes every drive), unnecessary slow downs (not phantom brakes per se), and refusal to change lanes at times, I long for the days when it was just a bit "dumber".

Around town, FSD is really impressive where it's good. But it also has some things that it just can't handle. So I feel that I probably have to pay more active attention than if I was just manually driving the car, so there is no way I can claim a 90% reduction in stress (maybe it's even an increase). I will say I had a recent success: I went to pick up dinner for my son & daughter-in-law and she ordered a drink that came in a humongous cup (I think it was actually a re-purposed togo container). It would not fit in the cup holder. So I held the cup in one hand, and used FSD to drive me home so it could so most of the steering (I still had my free hand on the wheel ready to take over if need be, but it would not have been easy to take 90 degree turns with one hand). It did just fine in the 3 mile trip through their area.

On the highway though, it's really good, except that I have to hover my foot over the accelerator in case I get a braking event.

Just one more thing to add here, I'm one of those who has no issues disabling and re-enabling FSD when I forsee difficult situations arise. And in some drives, it happens often. Kinda preventative, rather than reactive (which I'm sure most will find it most stressful). It has now become a second nature. When there are less cars around, or no cars following me, I let it do what it wants to do, and report if needed. This probably has something to do with my 90% stress reduction.

So I'm not using it the way Elon wants me to use, but I don't care, this method works for me.

 

[zroger73]

When there are less cars around, or no cars following me, I let it do what it wants to do, and report if needed.

I've done this several times when there's little to no traffic around. Just last weekend, I let it complete a left turn that wasn't going so well just to see what the end game would be (the worst that would have happened is I drove on some grass). I didn't think it was actually going to turn, but at the last second it whipped the steering wheel around so violately that it made an audible and tactile thud as it reached its mechanical limit. The front tire rode the very edge of the pavement without an inch to spare.

Another example which happens frequently is its lack of confidence when accelerating through intersections. More than once, it has crept forward, saw that there was no traffic to the sides, then quickly accelerated only to change its mind and come to a full stop in the middle of the intersection where it appears to sit indefinitely until I press the accelerator - no beeps or messages or indications of any kind as to why it stopped. There was zero danger in any of these instances, but it sure made me look stupid to anyone watching.

 

[legendsk]

I'm up with the concept of just using FSDb where it works. I do have a problem with the "hands on steering wheel nags", every 15 seconds whether both hands are on the wheel and both eyes on the road or not. I suppose because the majority of Teslas are sold and reporting from high population density areas, there must not be much reporting from this part of the world. Here FSDb can't go more than 50 feet without disengagement and I got so tired of reporting,
"I thought it would be better to get into my lane rather than run head on into that truck we were meeting", and
"When we met that truck and the car came to a complete stop here in the traffic lane, I took over before we were rear ended.", and
"I have no idea why it suddenly tried to turn head on into that concrete barrier and then threw up the red flashy thing demanding I take over and fix the problem."

I've run out of places here to test, there simply aren't any left where it is useful. (there were a few with 11.3.6, but with 11.4.4, there's none left).

 

[zroger73]

I find those nags to be largely unnecessary, annoying, and actually distracting because they draw my focus to the touch screen and away from the road. If the vehicle tracked my eyes/head and did away with the requirement to touch the steering wheel, the value of FSDb would increase exponentially for me. Nags at 15-second intervals are bad enough, but sometimes, particularly at night, they come as often as every 5 seconds.

 

[kabin]

I'm up with the concept of just using FSDb where it works. I do have a problem with the "hands on steering wheel nags", every 15 seconds whether both hands are on the wheel and both eyes on the road or not. I suppose because the majority of Teslas are sold and reporting from high population density areas, there must not be much reporting from this part of the world. Here FSDb can't go more than 50 feet without disengagement and I got so tired of reporting,
"I thought it would be better to get into my lane rather than run head on into that truck we were meeting", and
"When we met that truck and the car came to a complete stop here in the traffic lane, I took over before we were rear ended.", and
"I have no idea why it suddenly tried to turn head on into that concrete barrier and then threw up the red flashy thing demanding I take over and fix the problem."

I've run out of places here to test, there simply aren't any left where it is useful. (there were a few with 11.3.6, but with 11.4.4, there's none left).

Yes. We did an extended road trip over the weekend and avoiding FSD where I know it won't work is more tolerable. Unfortunately there's too many random embarassing moments one can't predict. The family pleaded for me to quit using it and I complied for a bit. Gawd speed to the team - it's a can of worms as is.

 

[zoomer0056]

I find those nags to be largely unnecessary, annoying, and actually distracting because they draw my focus to the touch screen and away from the road. If the vehicle tracked my eyes/head and did away with the requirement to touch the steering wheel, the value of FSDb would increase exponentially for me. Nags at 15-second intervals are bad enough, but sometimes, particularly at night, they come as often as every 5 seconds.

Do the nags happen when your hands are on the wheel? As far as I know, FSD is not hands free .... is that correct?

 

[JohnB007]

Do the nags happen when your hands are on the wheel? As far as I know, FSD is not hands free .... is that correct?

In my case, almost no nags only because I've gotten used to keeping my hands on all the time, with a little bit of torque using my hand's weight. It only bothers me a little that I have to keep my hands on almost all the time. I put left hand at 7-8 ish, or right on 4-5ish. Alternate on long drives. When car reacts to something, my hands usually feel it before my eyes.

There are times when it is completely safe to keep hands off as long as I am paying attention to what's in front of me. IMO, complete hands off should be implemented in certain (super safe) situations.

 

[JohnB007]

Yes. We did an extended road trip over the weekend and avoiding FSD where I know it won't work is more tolerable. Unfortunately there's too many random embarassing moments one can't predict. The family pleaded for me to quit using it and I complied for a bit. Gawd speed to the team - it's a can of worms as is.

It is interesting that there's such a variation in quality of experiences even though I realize environment affects this a great deal.

My wife, who doesn't drive, WANTS me to turn on FSD most of the time as it is far better than I am at centering... It also decides to switch lanes often before I do, because we need to, in order to get to where we want to go. Few less things to worry when driving. Perhaps these things may not have mattered to me 20 years ago, but age does make difference, me thinks.

And may be she got used to it's "phantom braking" or maybe it got better, she hasn't complained about that in ages now... Oh yeah she also told me I phantom brake quite a bit when I drive 100% manually...

 

[Tronguy]

Thing is.. There's this general meme about Elon that, OF COURSE HE DOESN'T DELIVER. Overpromises. Talks up a storm. HE'S A CON MAN!

And few people challenge that.

Exhibit #1: SpaceX. And an entire launch to orbit industry in the middle of total turmoil, trying to compete.

Exhibit #2: Well, Tesla. Seen a non-Tesla BEV being advertised on network TV these days? Or Radio? Think any of that would be happening if Elon hadn't shown up?

Exhibit #3: The Boring Company. Yeah, people like to diss on it. But, over in Las Vegas, the city fathers can't get enough and there's other places that are attempting the technology as well.

All of the above were late. Except, maybe, Tesla. All of the above had naysayers up the wazoo. And, often, active opposition.

Elon freely admits that he's scheduling prognostications leaves something to be desired.

But, and I'll note, Elon is not doing this in a vacuum. He, in person, is not sitting in front of a monitor somewhere doing all the actual coding. Or design.

He's STEM, with serious business chops, and he's been disrupting industries left, right and center by assembling teams, mostly engineering, of which he seems to have a knack.

Nice guy? Nope. Got failures behind him? Sure. That vacuum railroad is going nowhere. The jury is still out with X/Twitter, but it doesn't look good at the moment.

But would it be a good idea to bet against him? Um. If you've got a lot of cash you don't mind losing. You might win.

When this whole robo taxi stuff came up, it wasn't just Elon thinking it was possible. He may have come up with the idea (although, the idea's been around for some time, in and out of Science Fiction), but there was a crowd of Tesla engineers, scientists, and others who thought it could be done. FROM THE BEGINNING of Tesla. And there hasn't been refugees from Tesla, NDA or no NDA, who have reported that it's a scam.

The preponderance of the evidence seems to be that Tesla's going to pull it off. People carping that they Don't Have It Now probably want a pony, too.

It might not happen. Research projects sometimes don't work out. But nobody over at Tesla seems to have given up yet.

We'll see.

 

[navguy12]

The way I see it, generally people are happier if they experience something that exceeds their own expectations. It's just a human nature.

I realize that Elon has been promising forever on the perfect Robotaxi, and if that was your expectation, then your satisfaction will be quite low. I do think he is an idiot for MASSIVELY over-promising, although even that has some positive sides.

For those who realized that this is impossible within any reasonable time frame and look for ways to use what we have already (that's assuming it is useable in your area), then they will be happier. And there has been a lot of improvements (and some regressions). I looked at many different videos recently on the competitors of FSD (i.e. something consumers can buy today), FSD is still the leader if you look broadly.

As for someone like me (almost retiring age), who drives 240mile trip every weekend and living in a small city, FSD is a god sent feature - best automobile option I have ever bought. Not fully autonomous, nor going to enable me to sleep, but the stress level is 90% lower. Everyone around me says I'm crazy for driving that much at my age (not THAT old yet... lol) , but I'm doing it, and it's a lifestyle changer.

I have the FSDb, bought at a fire sale price of $US 2,500 back in early 2019, but rarely use it.

I’ve been retired over 17 years and have driven 30,000 km in the last 12 months (family matters).

Its more relaxing for me to manually drive this car in the city under all conditions.

I use NOA when on limited access freeways until there are many impending merge events ahead; my ability to recognize an incipient situation keeps me out of many boxed in situations that, if NOA was left to its own devices, would have just created more inefficiencies and stress.

My issue with NOA/Autosteer on two lane highways is that the car still stays pedantically in the center of the lane, regardless of the status of oncoming traffic, so I only use TACC…and since my latest update, TACC seems to slow down for no known reasons under all sorts of scenarios where no other vehicles are even around.

When folks post about having no interventions for xx hours/distances, I always think about the early days of commercial aviation.

Prior to cabin pressurization and dependable autopilot functionality (from just after takeoff to just prior to touchdown), a small number of passengers (compared to today) would grit their teeth, put up with much discomfort (and a few moments of terror every now and then) to fly long distances.

But until commercial aviation became comfortable and predictable, it was just a niche segment of the transportation market.

When current drivers of FSDb claim no intervention, does that mean no oncoming traffic had to shift its position in their respective lane? Or give the oncoming driver a moment of pause? Or have no passengers on board (the FSDb vehicle) complain about the sudden negative g force because the current iteration is scared of shadows and/or a change in the colour of the pavement? Were they able to rest their right foot on the floor (just like we all used to be able to comfortably do with “dumb” cruise control back in the day) when using FSDb while being tailgated?

The point I’m trying to make: we can grit our teeth and go long distances with FSDb with “no interventions“ to prove some sort of point, but like commercial aviation, there will not be massive public acceptance of FSDb until the experience is predictable and comfortable for passengers.

 

[JB47394]

In my case, almost no nags only because I've gotten used to keeping my hands on all the time, with a little bit of torque using my hand's weight. It only bothers me a little that I have to keep my hands on almost all the time. I put left hand at 7-8 ish, or right on 4-5ish. Alternate on long drives. When car reacts to something, my hands usually feel it before my eyes.

There are times when it is completely safe to keep hands off as long as I am paying attention to what's in front of me. IMO, complete hands off should be implemented in certain (super safe) situations.

My thinking and my practice exactly. I wonder if the seeming variability in the torque sensor makes this impractical for some percentage of the fleet. My torque sensor is like a brick wall, so I can push against it without worrying about the amount of pressure. Others talk about dropping out of FSDb accidentally, which I cannot imagine with my vehicle.

I'd just like them to implement driver monitoring to make sure that the driver is doing what the system requires for its safe use. My fear is that NHTSA would go over the top with requirements and we'd all be sitting with eyes wide open, following a required visual scan pattern at a fixed interval, permitted X blinks per minute, with hands poised over the 10 and 2 positions on the wheel, back straight, small of back against the seat, and right foot hovering over the brake pedal (ball of driver's right foot not farther than 3cm from brake pedal surface, see Figure 8-3).

 

[kabin]

It is interesting that there's such a variation in quality of experiences even though I realize environment affects this a great deal.

My wife, who doesn't drive, WANTS me to turn on FSD most of the time as it is far better than I am at centering... It also decides to switch lanes often before I do, because we need to, in order to get to where we want to go. Few less things to worry when driving. Perhaps these things may not have mattered to me 20 years ago, but age does make difference, me thinks.

And may be she got used to it's "phantom braking" or maybe it got better, she hasn't complained about that in ages now... Oh yeah she also told me I phantom brake quite a bit when I drive 100% manually...

It's feast or famine like variations. It freaked the family when the steering wheel made a sharp turn into the guardrail. And another time when it decided at the last second to abruptly steer for an offramp at 75mph. Attempting to share the roundabout lane with a car already in the roundabout lane. And then those quiet, clear intersections when it can't make up it's mind whether it wants to stop or go after a long creep to the stop sign. Priceless family bonding memories of survival.

 

[JohnB007]

I have the FSDb, bought at a fire sale price of $US 2,500 back in early 2019, but rarely use it.

Its more relaxing for me to manually drive this car in the city under all conditions.

We must be using FSD in different ways. I have FSD set to "average" and "minimize lane changes" when I enter big cities like Toronto. I only use it when I have a decent stretch (1km+?) of no lane change driving to do. When it's time to turn, I do it manually, then FSD comes back on after that. There are many cars around me, but it doesn't bother me at all. I find it more comfortable to drive with FSD on when I know that FSD can handle the current situation well. I think there is a learning curve before it becomes comfortable and start trust what it can do.

The point I’m trying to make: we can grit our teeth and go long distances with FSDb with “no interventions“ to prove some sort of point, but like commercial aviation, there will not be massive public acceptance of FSDb until the experience is predictable and comfortable for passengers.

Again, I personally am not looking for "no intervention" type of experiences, I'm more looking towards less stressful driving experiences. Even my wife finds my way of utilizing FSD less stressful.

I drive 35,000 miles per year, and my overall driving stress is far lower than it used to be, and my drives are far from "no interventions".

 

[kpanda17]

Since the code and capability are always changing, how do we know what it can handle?
I had FSD process a roundabout and it did well although it was empty and stopped upon entering instead of merging
It ran a red light in a complex intersection
It seems to not always exit the Highway properly, going into the turning lane very late

I’m starting to treat “it”, FSD like a child driver
As I guess I should
One day I hope it graduates to adult driver

 

[JohnB007]

Since the code and capability are always changing, how do we know what it can handle?
I had FSD process a roundabout and it did well although it was empty and stopped upon entering instead of merging
It ran a red light in a complex intersection
It seems to not always exit the Highway properly, going into the turning lane very late

I’m starting to treat “it”, FSD like a child driver
As I guess I should
One day I hope it graduates to adult driver

Not sure about others, but when I receive a new version, I am more cautious initially. It takes few weeks to sink in, and realize the different nuances. It's kinda fun in some ways to find out what's new, although regressions are not fun.

All of the examples you pointed above are examples where I would turn off FSD, drive the section myself, then FSD comes back on right after. Only once in a while when traffic is low, I'd let it try and see if anything has changed. On simple redlight scenarios, I have not experienced issues, but I do pay more attention if there's no cars in front of me.

Having said that, there are many situations where I never trusted FSD to drive many months ago, but now I do, and the coverage is getting better.

 

[navguy12]

We must be using FSD in different ways. I have FSD set to "average" and "minimize lane changes" when I enter big cities like Toronto. I only use it when I have a decent stretch (1km+?) of no lane change driving to do. When it's time to turn, I do it manually, then FSD comes back on after that. There are many cars around me, but it doesn't bother me at all. I find it more comfortable to drive with FSD on when I know that FSD can handle the current situation well. I think there is a learning curve before it becomes comfortable and start trust what it can do.


Again, I personally am not looking for "no intervention" type of experiences, I'm more looking towards less stressful driving experiences. Even my wife finds my way of utilizing FSD less stressful.

I drive 35,000 miles per year, and my overall driving stress is far lower than it used to be, and my drives are far from "no interventions".

Your settings for NOA/FSD sound the same as mine; I also intervene when having to exit, etc…same with plain old TACC, I’m always engaging and disengaging it in a manner that creates a smooth experience for my passengers.

 

[JohnB007]

Your settings for NOA/FSD sound the same as mine; I also intervene when having to exit, etc…same with plain old TACC, I’m always engaging and disengaging it in a manner that creates a smooth experience for my passengers.

When we travel down south during the winter, we do end up in rural areas quite a bit, with not much traffic. I'm looking forward to using the current highway FSD auto-lane change as we often encounter low traffic 4-lane highway situations. I've done many experiments during our weekly Toronto trips to see how auto-lane change works on different settings and scenarios, so I feel quite comfortable to use it ("minimize lane changes" turned off + "average") under some circumstances.

It's gonna be a fun trip, and hopefully even less stressful driving experiences.

 

[kpanda17]

Here’s another example
Two lanes for same traffic direction
Actually a Highway merge coming up on left
right lane ending and IT should merge left
IT kept driving in the right lane without merging left, crossing the diagonal lines
Crazy
Daylight, easy to see the crossed lines coming up

 

[legendsk]

Do the nags happen when your hands are on the wheel? As far as I know, FSD is not hands free .... is that correct?

Yes. Most comfortable position for me happens to be hands at 10 and 2. Of course that means my right wrist / arm blocks the nag message, so unless I spend 80% of my time looking at the screen instead of the road, I don't catch those, but see the flashing blue in my peripheral vision in time to avoid strikes. And of course just holding the wheel isn't good enough. Have to apply torque between 4.0 and 4.5 ounce-inches of torque, back and forth constantly. Any less than 4.0 won't satisfy it, any more than 4.5 will cause a disengage. Continued pressure in either direction won't satisfy it, the pressure must bounce back and forth. Without a doubt, the most aggravating thing about the car, which is saying a lot, considering the driver head rest attached to the front of the seat, not the top, tipped forward at about 15º forcing me to look at my lap and non-adjustable?

 

[JohnB007]

Yes. Most comfortable position for me happens to be hands at 10 and 2. Of course that means my right wrist / arm blocks the nag message, so unless I spend 80% of my time looking at the screen instead of the road, I don't catch those, but see the flashing blue in my peripheral vision in time to avoid strikes. And of course just holding the wheel isn't good enough. Have to apply torque between 4.0 and 4.5 ounce-inches of torque, back and forth constantly. Any less than 4.0 won't satisfy it, any more than 4.5 will cause a disengage. Continued pressure in either direction won't satisfy it, the pressure must bounce back and forth. Without a doubt, the most aggravating thing about the car, which is saying a lot, considering the driver head rest attached to the front of the seat, not the top, tipped forward at about 15º forcing me to look at my lap and non-adjustable?

Perhaps you could try holding the wheel with just your left or right hand at around 4.5 or 7.5? Because of your hand weight, you are forced to hold the wheel just slightly, and in 90% of the time, this is enough to keep that blue warning away from you. The older FSD version used to require more force so it was more difficult, but the current version is quite easy to keep the warning out.

I also used to like 10 and 2 positions but now got used to the new positions.