FSD 11.4.4 Runs Red Light

[KArnold]

Running FSD 11.4.4. I'm in lane #2 of two lanes turning left at a light. The intersection is not square, more of a 120 degree turn to the right.

FSD stops for the light as expected. The opposing northbound traffic left turn signal turns green. FSD decides to proceed into opposing traffic. Didn't get a chance to look at the MCU. GoogleMaps is here, TeslaCam is here. Of course, I intervened.

It can see the opposing traffic left turn signal but mistakenly thought it was for it. Be very careful when FSD can see opposing traffic lights. Only seems to happen when 1) i'm first at the light, and 2) I'm in the right lane, and 3) opposing (northbound) traffic gets a green turn signal.

 

[brkaus]

I definitely see this at an angled intersection near me.

 

[TresLA]

Yikes. Good watching out. Another edge case (of seemingly infinite) that Tesla needs to address before FSD reaches production level 5.

 

[azred]

While it wasn’t a factor here, be aware that after a firmware update some settings can get jacked up. A couple months ago, one of my two FSD cars had the setting for FSD changed to autopilot. Of course I only made the discovery when the car was aggressively approaching a stoplight with no sign of slowing down. I have never had the FSD setting affected before, but once is too often!

As for running a red light while FSD is engaged, I have never had it happen but believe it is especially likely if the green light is dim. Not sure how this can ever be fixed, even in HW1000.

 

[zoomer0056]

I see your fellow traveler to the left of you ran through the red light. Your dash cam does not show your car running the red light as the thread title says.

 

[KArnold]

I see your fellow traveler to the left of you ran through the red light. Your dash cam does not show your car running the red light as the thread title says.

True, just attempted to. I intervened. Didn't feel like having an accident today.

 

[Twiglett]

I love the USA. It seems like even the tiniest jurisdiction gets to decide how they should mark roads and where to place signs and what the signs should look like.
They extend the fog line all the way out into the intersection, but don't bother putting a stop line.
No wonder even attentive drivers get confused.
The US probably has more and varied road rules and signage than the entirety of Europe - but Europe is made up of different countries and has more commonality than the untied states

 

[aronth5]

As for running a red light while FSD is engaged, I have never had it happen but believe it is especially likely if the green light is dim. Not sure how this can ever be fixed, even in HW1000.

I have had FSD attempt to run several red lights across all FSD versions. Two lights in particular are susceptible to this. Where I see this is when the lights are angled at such a way that when the crossing street light turns green FSD believes the light is for my road and goes for it.

 

[johnm]

I love the USA. It seems like even the tiniest jurisdiction gets to decide how they should mark roads and where to place signs and what the signs should look like.
They extend the fog line all the way out into the intersection, but don't bother putting a stop line.
No wonder even attentive drivers get confused.
The US probably has more and varied road rules and signage than the entirety of Europe - but Europe is made up of different countries and has more commonality than the untied states

If you look at the google map (or the video), there is a stop line. It is about 72 feet back from the end of that fog line extension.

 

[KArnold]

If you look at the google map (or the video), there is a stop line. It is about 72 feet back from the end of that fog line extension.

True. But FSD has no problem with it and stops properly. I'm not sure that has anything to do with FSD following the wrong traffic light. There will always be intersections where opposing signals are visible. FSD just needs to be a bit smarter.

 

[GBMaryland]

I am routinely seeing situations where the car decides to change lanes into a lane that’s not actually a lane. The whole thing with Tesla disabling the ability to tell it not to change lanes unless you approve it is problematic… if not downright dangerous. Many times I’ve had it forcibly try to change lanes when there is no need to or the lane in question is a turn lane, etc.

So, yeah, little bit more work needs to be done on the edge cases, such as the OP’s (Non-standard intersection a little outside the normal).

 

[TresLA]

I see your fellow traveler to the left of you ran through the red light. Your dash cam does not show your car running the red light as the thread title says.

I know FSDb has examples of bad behavior worse than human drivers, but it is funny that this video shows a human driver running the red light. The Tesla gets dinged by society, blasted on forums, dragged through the media, but the human driver AFTER gets essentially excused.

 

[clydeiii]

The exact same sort of intersection near Baltimore, it has run the red on FSDb for as long as I've had FSDb, I've reported it many, many times:

O'Donnell Street Cut Off · O'Donnell Street Cut Off, Baltimore, MD 21224

O'Donnell Street Cut Off, Baltimore, MD 21224

goo.gl

 

[dgatwood]

I know FSDb has examples of bad behavior worse than human drivers, but it is funny that this video shows a human driver running the red light. The Tesla gets dinged by society, blasted on forums, dragged through the media, but the human driver AFTER gets essentially excused.

It also seems possible that the human driver doing so is the reason why the car thought it should, and that a human driver might make the same mistake if not fully paying attention.

 

[TresLA]

It also seems possible that the human driver doing so is the reason why the car thought it should, and that a human driver might make the same mistake if not fully paying attention.

Yes, "human edge cases". I've often seen non-local drivers confused by poorly designed intersections/merges/traffic controls. AVs aren't the only ones challenged by driving in the real world!

 

[KArnold]

It also seems possible that the human driver doing so is the reason why the car thought it should,

Maybe, but in this case FSD had already fully stopped at the stop line. If that's a factor it is very late decision-making.

 

[AndrewZ]

Yes, "human edge cases". I've often seen non-local drivers confused by poorly designed intersections/merges/traffic controls. AVs aren't the only ones challenged by driving in the real world!

Humans make mistakes all the time, the gauge for robotaxis of course is how many multiples better than humans the software must be for a company to own all the mistakes that occur while the vehicles are operating autonomously

I figure they need to run at least 1/100th the red lights

 

[GBMaryland]

It also seems possible that the human driver doing so is the reason why the car thought it should, and that a human driver might make the same mistake if not fully paying attention.

My issue is that a human can factor in specific limits if the UI is set to allow it, and Tesla is removing those options (e.g. 'turn off automatic lange change,' which is now missing from FSDb).

In other words, while we make mistakes, we are also capable of setting parameter to limit potential issues... which Tesla seems to like to change without warning. (automatic lane change, ability to turn down regenerative braking, etc., etc.)

 

[JB47394]

In other words, while we make mistakes, we are also capable of setting parameter to limit potential issues

We are also capable of setting parameters to create a royal mess. Remember that just as FSDb is always trying to kill you, so are your customers. What would Dan O'Dowd do with four parameters that can be configured in 16 different permutations? He'd choose the worst combination he could find and go to town with criticisms over how FSDb has a hidden kill mode.

 

[Phlier]

I am routinely seeing situations where the car decides to change lanes into a lane that’s not actually a lane. The whole thing with Tesla disabling the ability to tell it not to change lanes unless you approve it is problematic… if not downright dangerous. Many times I’ve had it forcibly try to change lanes when there is no need to or the lane in question is a turn lane, etc.

So, yeah, little bit more work needs to be done on the edge cases, such as the OP’s (Non-standard intersection a little outside the normal).

Exactly. Lane management has been the largest regression for me in the last few versions, with 11.4.4 being completely clueless.