New Tesla/EV owner and first-time FSD beta user - is this a joke?

[clydeiii]

We should all be on 11.4.2 within a week or so unless there's big problems discovered with this one. Anyone still on 11.3.6 isn't yet "behind the times"...

 

[Dominoq]

Yes, it's a difficult issue. It's important to prioritize safety over cost and convenience. While Tesla doesn't like hardware redundancy, if it's necessary to make the autopilot system work well and reduce the risk of accidents, it's worth considering. It's understandable to feel frustrated if the system doesn't work well and to be critical of that, especially if there have been accidents. We should continue to push for improvements and focus on safety as a primary concern.

 

[Dick Feldman]

I purchased my first EV last month - a Model Y Long Range. I've had several vehicles with adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist. I used the adaptive cruise control often, but the lane keeping assist was a parlor trick at best. In the Hondas and Mazdas I've had with that feature, it slowly oscillated from one side of the lane to the other. I was very impressed with the Model Y's ability to stay well-centered in the lane using the standard Autopilot.

Yesterday, I began using FSD beta 11.3.6 after updating to 2023.12.10. This was my first time experiencing FSD. Yesterday evening, I let it drive me from home to a local trail and back. Immediately, I noticed how jerky and uncertain it was when pulling out of my driveway onto the main road. A mile later, I had to slam on the brakes to an ABS-controlled stop after the car appeared as though it was going to drive right through a 4-way stop with a stop sign and flashing red lights at 55 MPH.

The next time I had to intervene was when I was sitting at a major intersection waiting to turn left at a red light. When the traffic lights to the right of me turned green, my car turned on the right turn signal and began turning into traffic coming up from behind, so I had to step on the brake and yank the steering wheel. The whole time, the projected path was still for a left turn from the left turn lane - I have no idea why or what it would have done had I let it (aside from getting rear-ended by a vehicle to my right). The drive home was slightly less dramatic.

This morning, I let it drive me from home to work. This time, it stopped at the 4-way stop, but I had a right turn instead of going straight ahead. Multiple times I had to press the accelerator pedal as the car appeared very "timid" for no apparent reason and I could tell that traffic behind me was confused and frustrated. I noticed that it would also wait until the last moment and brake hard when coming to a stop whereas I would anticipate stops and begin slowing down hundreds of feet earlier.

I've been a tech geek all my life - first among my friends and family to have a computer, cell phone, and now an EV. I've had years of experience with "driver assist" features. I'm an engineer by day and spent a few years as an automotive journalist.

Based on my first hour with Tesla's FSD beta, I can't imagine how this is even allowed on public roads. It seems nowhere near ready. I've watched hundreds of videos demonstrating FSD, but based on my preliminary experience, I'm convinced those are cherry-picked examples where little to no intervention is required. Just in my first hour, I had to intervene nearly a dozen times.

Perhaps it's because I travel in rural and suburban areas where Teslas are extremely rare, so the system has no "training" here? As it stands, it's not only useless, but downright dangerous. I'll pay for another month and see how it works for other drives, but I have a strong suspicion that FSD in its current form is not for me. At minimum, I'm embarrassed by how it drives and even fearful at times - and this is coming from someone who puts a lot of faith in technology.

Very similar to my experience. I think they designed the FSD for standard divided highways, which are actually quite simple to navigate. They’re nowhere near handling most driving situations.

 

[DanDi58]

Very similar to my experience. I think they designed the FSD for standard divided highways, which are actually quite simple to navigate. They’re nowhere near handling most driving situations.

Well, not really - FSD was DESIGNED to be autonomous; it just isn't yet, although there are plenty of people that seem to have very good experiences with it.

 

[zroger73]

Like many others, I could fill up pages with examples of things that FSDb does uncomfortably, not at all, dangerously, embarrassingly, discourteously, illegally, or unnecessarily.

As long as there are no stops or turns, FSDb does very well - even better than the standard Autosteer because it appears to be more aware of its surroundings.

I've had FSDb drive straight through red lights and stop signs at full speed without even a hint of slowing down. I've had FSDb pull out into traffic then "panic" and stop in the middle of the road. It fails to get in the proper lane in time to make a turn and ends up having to take another route. It changes lanes unnecessarily. It yanks the steering wheel back and forth violently in indecisive low-speed turns.

It's maddening that the car will blow through a stop sign without a care in the world, but if I miss one of the "touch the steering wheel every 5 second" messages (because the message is below and to the right of where I'm SUPPOSED to be looking, which is...THE ROAD AHEAD), I get locked out of a feature that I've paid for.

Thankfully, I did not buy a Tesla because of the full self-driving.

 

[zoomer0056]

Like many others, I could fill up pages with examples of things that FSDb does uncomfortably, not at all, dangerously, embarrassingly, discourteously, illegally, or unnecessarily.

As long as there are no stops or turns, FSDb does very well - even better than the standard Autosteer because it appears to be more aware of its surroundings.

I've had FSDb drive straight through red lights and stop signs at full speed without even a hint of slowing down. I've had FSDb pull out into traffic then "panic" and stop in the middle of the road. It fails to get in the proper lane in time to make a turn and ends up having to take another route. It changes lanes unnecessarily. It yanks the steering wheel back and forth violently in indecisive low-speed turns.

It's maddening that the car will blow through a stop sign without a care in the world, but if I miss one of the "touch the steering wheel every 5 second" messages (because the message is below and to the right of where I'm SUPPOSED to be looking, which is...THE ROAD AHEAD), I get locked out of a feature that I've paid for.

Thankfully, I did not buy a Tesla because of the full self-driving.

If you get pulled over by the police for running a stop sign you will get a ticket.

 

[!igs]

It's maddening that the car will blow through a stop sign without a care in the world, but if I miss one of the "touch the steering wheel every 5 second" messages (because the message is below and to the right of where I'm SUPPOSED to be looking, which is...THE ROAD AHEAD), I get locked out of a feature that I've paid for.

Thankfully, I did not buy a Tesla because of the full self-driving.

I would have gone with another manufacturer if it wasn't for FSD. Like Elon himself said, without FSD, Tesla is worth zero.

 

[zroger73]

I don't take much of what Elon says seriously - I most certainly keep him at arm's length.

I bought a Tesla because they are among the most efficient EVs available and Tesla has more experience by far than any other automaker at building EVs. I also prefer Tesla's distinct and minimalist design. Tesla also tends to offer the highest levels of performance. They also have the best charging experience when traveling by far.

I have little to no interest in a front-wheel-drive EV with economy car levels of performance in a package that doesn't look significantly different than any other commodity vehicle ever made.

Last year, Tesla said they sold 285,000 FSD packages. They've made about 4 million vehicles, so it looks like the take rate is about 7% while 93% purchased a Tesla not because of FSD.

Now, understand that I'm not married to Tesla by any means. I can spend my coins on any make or model. For now, that brand of choice is Tesla until or unless something better comes along.

 

[EvilNuff]

I would have gone with another manufacturer if it wasn't for FSD. Like Elon himself said, without FSD, Tesla is worth zero.

My view is the exactly opposite. I bought a Tesla because it was the most fun/enjoyable car to drive.

I fall into the camp that FSD is at minimum a decade away, more likely 20-30+ years away from actually being able to robotaxi. I wouldn't use it in its current state if it was free much less pay for it. Right now FSD's value to tesla is 100% hype from people like ARK investments who pump up the stock value based on incorrect assumptions.

 

[zroger73]

My view is the exactly opposite. I bought a Tesla because it was the most fun/enjoyable car to drive.

I fall into the camp that FSD is at minimum a decade away, more likely 20-30+ years away from actually being able to robotaxi. I wouldn't use it in its current state if it was free much less pay for it. Right now FSD's value to tesla is 100% hype from people like ARK investments who pump up the stock value based on incorrect assumptions.

As much of a dumpster fire FSD is at the moment, keep in mind that it has been in public beta for less than three years when it was available only to "a small number of expert and careful drivers".

January 2021 - nearly 1,000
May 2021 - several thousand
October 2021 - another thousand
November 2021 - 11,700
January 2022 - 60,000
April 2022 - 100,000
November/December 2022 - 285,000

FSDb has been available to and collecting data from anyone, regardless of their safety score, for only eight months. The amount of real-world data that Tesla collects from FSDb has increased exponentially to the point there is too much to process. Tesla only recently brought their supercomputer, Dojo, online to help process this and there's still a lot of work to do.

I am cautiously optimistic that exponential increases in data and processing and the coming changes to the output section to bring end-to-end AI will significantly acclerate improvements to FSD. I think we're on the nearer side of a decade and certainly not 20-30+ years away from a reasonably useful product.

 

[uscbucsfan]

FSDb has been available to and collecting data from anyone, regardless of their safety score, for only eight months.

In reality that was like a 2-4 week window that it was available to everyone.

 

[ALSETJC]

I purchased my first EV last month - a Model Y Long Range. I've had several vehicles with adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist. I used the adaptive cruise control often, but the lane keeping assist was a parlor trick at best. In the Hondas and Mazdas I've had with that feature, it slowly oscillated from one side of the lane to the other. I was very impressed with the Model Y's ability to stay well-centered in the lane using the standard Autopilot.

Yesterday, I began using FSD beta 11.3.6 after updating to 2023.12.10. This was my first time experiencing FSD. Yesterday evening, I let it drive me from home to a local trail and back. Immediately, I noticed how jerky and uncertain it was when pulling out of my driveway onto the main road. A mile later, I had to slam on the brakes to an ABS-controlled stop after the car appeared as though it was going to drive right through a 4-way stop with a stop sign and flashing red lights at 55 MPH.

The next time I had to intervene was when I was sitting at a major intersection waiting to turn left at a red light. When the traffic lights to the right of me turned green, my car turned on the right turn signal and began turning into traffic coming up from behind, so I had to step on the brake and yank the steering wheel. The whole time, the projected path was still for a left turn from the left turn lane - I have no idea why or what it would have done had I let it (aside from getting rear-ended by a vehicle to my right). The drive home was slightly less dramatic.

This morning, I let it drive me from home to work. This time, it stopped at the 4-way stop, but I had a right turn instead of going straight ahead. Multiple times I had to press the accelerator pedal as the car appeared very "timid" for no apparent reason and I could tell that traffic behind me was confused and frustrated. I noticed that it would also wait until the last moment and brake hard when coming to a stop whereas I would anticipate stops and begin slowing down hundreds of feet earlier.

I've been a tech geek all my life - first among my friends and family to have a computer, cell phone, and now an EV. I've had years of experience with "driver assist" features. I'm an engineer by day and spent a few years as an automotive journalist.

Based on my first hour with Tesla's FSD beta, I can't imagine how this is even allowed on public roads. It seems nowhere near ready. I've watched hundreds of videos demonstrating FSD, but based on my preliminary experience, I'm convinced those are cherry-picked examples where little to no intervention is required. Just in my first hour, I had to intervene nearly a dozen times.

Perhaps it's because I travel in rural and suburban areas where Teslas are extremely rare, so the system has no "training" here? As it stands, it's not only useless, but downright dangerous. I'll pay for another month and see how it works for other drives, but I have a strong suspicion that FSD in its current form is not for me. At minimum, I'm embarrassed by how it drives and even fearful at times - and this is coming from someone who puts a lot of faith in technology.

No it has nothing to do with you, it is FSD being nowhere close to a beta. I cannot use it for over a minute without shutting it off. I turned it on the other day to see if there was any progress, and in 30 seconds my car decided to go into the oncoming lane in a residential street to make a left turn at a stop sign. It has a very long way to go, don't listen to the youtube people. I have used FSD for about 1 - 2 hrs total in the last 2 years in city streets and have probably had 30 disengagements. If you do turn on FSD know that you will be the worst driver on the road. Get those "new driver" bumper stickers ready

 

[RSpanner]

I am cautiously optimistic that exponential increases in data and processing and the coming changes to the output section to bring end-to-end AI will significantly acclerate improvements to FSD. I think we're on the nearer side of a decade and certainly not 20-30+ years away from a reasonably useful product.

I have no inclination to put myself or my family under the guidance of FSD, never will. If you know anyone who drinks and drives..tell them no, don't depend on FSD. Just a thought.

 

[zroger73]

Since I started this thread 2.5 months ago, I've continued using FSDb for most drives including the majority of my 25-minute daily commute. The number of interventions required has dropped dramatically - not because it has gotten better (although it HAS stopped running two stop stops signs near home and turning left when an adjacent light turns green despite still being on the same version - 11.3.6), but because I've learned to not to use it in places I know it will fail to work safely or comfortably. I'm curious to try 11.4.7 and 12, in particular. I guess I'll keep paying $200/month for now. I do find some value in the feature, but if 12 isn't significantly better, that could mark the end of my subscription.

 

[Tronguy]

Wow. Such negativity.

I'll be the first to admit that FSD-b isn't ready for Prime Time, in particular on City Streets. I've had my installation attempt to run the occasional red light, and there's lots of hypotheses as to Why (it's happened to other people, too.). It's been known to wait too long to move into an exit lane, or not aggressively move out of an on-ramp lane into traffic.

The term for "taking over when the car's about to do an idiot thing" is Intervention. Back in early last year when I first got involved with FSD-b, there was, on a 15-mile commute, on the order of 20 or so interventions. Car couldn't do lefts reliably, rights reliably, handle a left exit on an interstate reliably, and had a habit in certain places of making a run straight at Jersey Barriers. Admittedly, there was construction going on, but still. Stress, yes. Hitting the "report this" button (no longer there), yes.

Things have gotten better. On a 20 mile trip I'll get zero interventions about half the time; on the other half, one to three times. On the interstate, I've literally driven a hundred miles at a whack sans issues, and that includes going across the George Washington Bridge. (Motto: It's always rush hour on the GWB.)

Yes, the car makes mistakes. It's not 9 9's yet, by any means. But it sure isn't the end of the world. I have never found myself in a position where, when paying attention, as one is supposed to do, the car tried to do something and I didn't have time to stop it from doing that.

Other cars doing insane things, well, people have issues with that, too. And one of these days it's going to handle an unprotected left turn without swerving to the right, so other cars coming up from the rear can get around one.

But if any of you bought FSD-b with the idea that you could grab War and Peace and let the car drive you: That's not going to happen. The general idea here is that, given enough data from the testers running FSD-b the software developers at Tesla will improve the product so it can lose the "-b" designation.

That's not going to happen tomorrow, but a number of us think that we can see the end from here. This, "30-50 years" stuff, well, don't think so.

 

[Tronguy]

Since I started this thread 2.5 months ago, I've continued using FSDb for most drives including the majority of my 25-minute daily commute. The number of interventions required has dropped dramatically - not because it has gotten better (although it HAS stopped running two stop stops signs near home and turning left when an adjacent light turns green despite still being on the same version - 11.3.6), but because I've learned to not to use it in places I know it will fail to work safely or comfortably. I'm curious to try 11.4.7 and 12, in particular. I guess I'll keep paying $200/month for now. I do find some value in the feature, but if 12 isn't significantly better, that could mark the end of my subscription.

I'm in a slightly different state than you are regarding FSD-b and the use thereof.

The SO has come to the realization that certain old farts get enamored of boats, or airplanes, or golf clubs. By that measure, a shiny 2018 M3 having all the bells and whistles is cheap. So when I pitched FSD to her a few years back when Tesla was having a sale, she caved and we went ahead and did it. I got in for $6k. Some time later, Tesla swapped out the 2.5 computer for the 3.0 comp; and, early in 2022, I got into the Beta.

So, I don't have continuing costs.

You're right about the software getting better, though. My biggest fear at this point is that some of the naysayers will be right, and it'll take HW4.0 to run FSD. But nobody at Tesla has said that; rather the opposite. But the whole thing is a research project, where research, traditionally, is defined as, "The process of running up alleys to find out if they're blind." I actually find the slow but steady improvement a Good Sign: If they were stuck by now somebody, somewhere, would have said something. And nobody at Tesla has.

 

[RTPEV]

Wow. Such negativity.

At least in my case it's a result of the continued insistence on Elon's part that by the end of the year we will have FULL SELF DRIVING. Sorry, but he has completely lost credibility here to the point that I really don't see the end in sight (and it's not that I have any particular grudge against Elon's technical prowess--it's just that I think his recent motives are more business motivated than true technical leadership). If he/Tesla would be more honest with not put all their eggs into the idea that FSD will be a reality at the end of the year basket (and this includes charging the outrageous prices they are for what essentially is a fairly mediocre driver assistance tool), then we could have an honest discussion about hurdles to be overcome and timelines. But I believe we are being actively lied to, and therefore I conclude that we are still a long ways off.

 

[JohnB007]

The way I see it, generally people are happier if they experience something that exceeds their own expectations. It's just a human nature.

I realize that Elon has been promising forever on the perfect Robotaxi, and if that was your expectation, then your satisfaction will be quite low. I do think he is an idiot for MASSIVELY over-promising, although even that has some positive sides.

For those who realized that this is impossible within any reasonable time frame and look for ways to use what we have already (that's assuming it is useable in your area), then they will be happier. And there has been a lot of improvements (and some regressions). I looked at many different videos recently on the competitors of FSD (i.e. something consumers can buy today), FSD is still the leader if you look broadly.

As for someone like me (almost retiring age), who drives 240mile trip every weekend and living in a small city, FSD is a god sent feature - best automobile option I have ever bought. Not fully autonomous, nor going to enable me to sleep, but the stress level is 90% lower. Everyone around me says I'm crazy for driving that much at my age (not THAT old yet... lol) , but I'm doing it, and it's a lifestyle changer.

 

[RTPEV]

The way I see it, generally people are happier if they experience something that exceeds their own expectations. It's just a human nature.

Very true. And this is why I think Elon is doing himself and Tesla a disservice by hyping up FSD so much. By definition, it is going to not live up to the hype.

For the record, my own expectations are fairly low. Back in late 2017 / early 2018 when I ordered my car, there were quite a few people ordering FSD (at the then even high price of $8000 or $9000), but I figured it still had many years to go before it was ready for prime time, and that I would upgrade later if it looked close. I did buy EAP under the mistaken impression that I could summon the car into my garage to charge it (something it still can't do today, even with the simple "just back up" summon), and because I did want the ability to change lanes with my turn signal--it was a bit more than I thought it was worth, but I figured I was investing in FSD development (at that time, Tesla was not in the strong financial position it is today). When there was a $2K FSD fire sale, I did grab it then because I figured it would never be that cheap again.

I am reasonably happy with what I would call enhanced autopilot behavior, although in some ways, I think it has taken some steps backwards since I first got it. They finally did improve handling unmarked merge lanes a release or two ago, but beyond that, it's quirky behavior regarding lane changes (even though I manually select Minimal Lane Changes every drive), unnecessary slow downs (not phantom brakes per se), and refusal to change lanes at times, I long for the days when it was just a bit "dumber".

Around town, FSD is really impressive where it's good. But it also has some things that it just can't handle. So I feel that I probably have to pay more active attention than if I was just manually driving the car, so there is no way I can claim a 90% reduction in stress (maybe it's even an increase). I will say I had a recent success: I went to pick up dinner for my son & daughter-in-law and she ordered a drink that came in a humongous cup (I think it was actually a re-purposed togo container). It would not fit in the cup holder. So I held the cup in one hand, and used FSD to drive me home so it could so most of the steering (I still had my free hand on the wheel ready to take over if need be, but it would not have been easy to take 90 degree turns with one hand). It did just fine in the 3 mile trip through their area.

On the highway though, it's really good, except that I have to hover my foot over the accelerator in case I get a braking event.

 

[LastGas]

When the traffic lights to the right of me turned green, my car turned on the right turn signal and began turning into traffic coming up from behind, so I had to step on the brake and yank the steering wheel. The whole time, the projected path was still for a left turn from the left turn lane

I had this happen frequently at one particular location at V11.3.6, but it's not doing it any more since V11.4.4.