Pack Swap on 70D to 90kWh HP?

[David99]

Would upping a 70 to 400 cause harm?

I highly doubt that the 70 has different inverters or motors. They can operate at a wide range of voltage (they have to anyways because the voltage difference between fully discharged and fully charged is about 100 Volt.). The example that a 60 had no problem taking an 85 battery shows that.

 

[glhs272]

The Model S platform runs fine on 350volts or 400volts. It's just a matter of control over the firmware.

 

[MP3Mike]

Would upping a 70 to 400 cause harm?

Umm, how would you do that? Open the pack an rewire all of the modules? Add two extra modules? (which would make it a 90 kWh pack.)

 

[trigga71]

If I'm reading this right it's nothing like coding a BMW. The BMW's firmware has all the info for the different configurations, to a degree. Coding is just turning on and off the settings you want. The Tesla firmware is unique for each trim level. S85, P85, etc use different firmware even if its the same parts. You have to flash the full firmware over what is already programmed. Is that correct?

 

[sandpiper]

60's and 70's have the same voltage; 350. There are 14 modules in 60's and 70's, and 16 modules in 85's and 90's. Each module is 25 volts. In 60's they also remove some cells, but the voltage stays the same. 70's have fully populated modules, same as used in an 85 or 90.

So, I'm confused by this. If the 70s have fully populated modules, and are made with the same cells as the 90s, doesn't that imply that they have 14/16 = 87.5% of the capacity of a 90? And so shouldn't they be actually be 78s? Or alternately, wouldn't the 90s actually be 80s? Or some mix between the two? Something doesn't add up here.

I know there's speculation that the 70s are ALL just software limited 75s.... and maybe that's why they're able to do an unlock to turn them into 75s (or maybe 78s)?

 

[MP3Mike]

So, I'm confused by this. If the 70s have fully populated modules, and are made with the same cells as the 90s, doesn't that imply that they have 14/16 = 87.5% of the capacity of a 90? And so shouldn't they be actually be 78s? Or alternately, wouldn't the 90s actually be 80s? Or some mix between the two? Something doesn't add up here.

I know there's speculation that the 70s are ALL just software limited 75s.... and maybe that's why they're able to do an unlock to turn them into 75s (or maybe 78s)?

You got one thing wrong the 70s use the same cells as the 85 they just removed two modules. So a 70 is 14/16 of an 85 pack. So if an 85 was actually 85kWh, then it would be a 74kWh pack. But since we think an 85kWh pack is really only ~81kWh, that would make the 70kWh pack actually just under 71kWh.

The new 75kWh packs are probably using the new 90kWh cell formula, but with only 14 of the 16 modules.

 

[sandpiper]

You got one thing wrong the 70s use the same cells as the 85 they just removed two modules. So a 70 is 14/16 of an 85 pack. So if an 85 was actually 85kWh, then it would be a 74kWh pack. But since we think an 85kWh pack is really only ~81kWh, that would make the 70kWh pack actually just under 71kWh.

The new 75kWh packs are probably using the new 90kWh cell formula, but with only 14 of the 16 modules.

I would be very surprised if they've been using two different types of cells. And the 70s came out at roughly the same time as the 90s. To me it seems more likely that the 70s have been 75s all along with the same cells as the 90s - but that they they software limited them for marketing purposes.

 

[Buzzz]

Elon said a few hours ago on Twitter that larger battery replacement will be possible in the future.

Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[MP3Mike]

I would be very surprised if they've been using two different types of cells. And the 70s came out at roughly the same time as the 90s. To me it seems more likely that the 70s have been 75s all along with the same cells as the 90s - but that they they software limited them for marketing purposes.

Well if I recall correctly the 60 kWh pack, which is 14 modules with holes/empty cell spots in it, was replaced with the 70 kWh which is 14 modules without holes in it in April, 2015. (While the 85 kWh pack was still the long range choice.) Then the 90 kWh pack was released until July, 2015, which is when they announced the new formula. They also produced the 85s and 90s at the same time which were two different types of cells.

 

[sandpiper]

Well if I recall correctly the 60 kWh pack, which is 14 modules with holes/empty cell spots in it, was replaced with the 70 kWh which is 14 modules without holes in it in April, 2015. (While the 85 kWh pack was still the long range choice.) Then the 90 kWh pack was released until July, 2015, which is when they announced the new formula. They also produced the 85s and 90s at the same time which were two different types of cells.

Right... So the made the 85s for a bit to run out the old cell inventory. That ended quite a while ago. I have a very hard time believing that the 70s in production since that time have still been using the older cells. I bet that there are a lot of older 70s already out there that are really 75s (or 78s depending on how you rate them).

 

[Bikezion]

It's not even a different inverter.

Based on my own analysis all of the small motors and inverters (70D, 85D, 90D, front of P85D/P90D) are all physically the same. All of the large motors and inverters (S40/S60/S85/P85/S90/rear of P85D and P90D) are all physically the same.

The only differences are firmware, and relevant battery capability. An S85, for example, could be changed to P85 performance with just software. A 40 could be changed to P85 performance with a pack swap and software.

So what about the Rav 4 EV, and the B class ED. If I understand right, they have the same motor as the large rear motor. Not sure about the inverter, but if I were to guess...... Anybody know?

 

[Ingineer]

The Rav4 and B-Class motors are physically different because they have implemented a park pawl actuator and the internal mechanism. I think they are the same as the non-P inverters, but run different software.

 

[travwill]

I would be very surprised if they've been using two different types of cells. And the 70s came out at roughly the same time as the 90s. To me it seems more likely that the 70s have been 75s all along with the same cells as the 90s - but that they they software limited them for marketing purposes.

I sent a note/email to Tesla asking what the earliest VIN is that would potentially be eligible to upgrade to 75D from 70D. My VIN for example was a 70D delivered in June, right before the 90s were released though - likely for sure old chemistry and not eligible, but it could clarify if they provide a clear answer when the 70s (if at all) started using improved 90s chemistry (if not until refresh).

-T

 

[bswn1]

I sent a note/email to Tesla asking what the earliest VIN is that would potentially be eligible to upgrade to 75D from 70D. My VIN for example was a 70D delivered in June, right before the 90s were released though - likely for sure old chemistry and not eligible, but it could clarify if they provide a clear answer when the 70s (if at all) started using improved 90s chemistry (if not until refresh).

-T

Do me a favor and update this thread with what they tell you, I'm curious too... I got mine delivered in March.

 

[Camera-Cruiser]

Elon said a few hours ago on Twitter that larger battery replacement will be possible in the future.

Elon Musk on Twitter

This makes sense in a year to 18 months from now. Maybe 2 years. Reason being is that the Gigafactory will be pumping out batteries at a much lower cost then. I would love being able to buy a 100 to 120 KwH battery for a reasonable fee. I think Tesla, and the electric car industry as a whole, needs to be able to show that all the gas savings you received over the past 4 to 5 years is not lost the moment you have to buy a new battery. Tesla knows this and the Gigafactory is there to both increase volume, and reduce price.

So, where do I send my USB thumb drive?

 

[scole04]

Tesla could use this as a cash cow for the service centers. They could even charge a premium to upgrade after delivery because most don't know about the common part structure.

 

[jbcarioca]

Tesla could use this as a cash cow for the service centers. They could even charge a premium to upgrade after delivery because most don't know about the common part structure.

Even if one knows this most people would choose the lowest-risk option by going with the factory vs an aftermarket choice. If our person is and electrical engineer like a handful of people here the decision process outdoor be entirely different.

 

[scole04]

Even if one knows this most people would choose the lowest-risk option by going with the factory vs an aftermarket choice. If our person is and electrical engineer like a handful of people here the decision process outdoor be entirely different.

Do you guys want to leak this to the media or should I.The upgrade requests will start rolling in.

 

[Ric T.]

In the future, if a 70D was replaced with a 90kWh pack somehow would the HP output / speed then increase to that of a current 90D?

The larger battery pack has a larger number of individual batteries. There is a limit as to what each individual cell can "output" at one time. Therefore a larger pack can output more amps at one time.

 

[HyperMiler]

Like it or not, compared to where they started out, Tesla is closer to a big car company now, going from a "we will try as hard as we can" to the usual "we cheat you out of as much money as we can per release". The motivation (funding model 3 for the masses) may be laudable. The methodology is not, any more? They have stopped telling the truth, in a way? In part, understandable, yet, in a way, regrettable. Am I being naive? Or is this stopping being s3xy?