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PCN at supercharger Kings Lynn despite reasonable efforts

4pies

Member
Jun 6, 2021
6
5
UK
used this charger couple times recently; just in case people are wondering: signage has been updated, each charger now has a clear sign stating registration is required at reception.

There’s an iPad next to reception, takes seconds to register your reg.

Staff was friendly, you can have a coffee/ drink/ snack. Hassle free.
 
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FlyingHappily

Member
Jul 9, 2020
17
43
London
used this charger couple times recently; just in case people are wondering: signage has been updated, each charger now has a clear sign stating registration is required at reception.

There’s an iPad next to reception, takes seconds to register your reg.

Staff was friendly, you can have a coffee/ drink/ snack. Hassle free.

Friendly staff or not, I cannot agree that this location is ‘hassle free’ in any sense. I did eventually have my three-figure charge for visiting dropped, but the letter I received explains in black and white that no driver may enter this site without a permit, issued beforehand, by the landowner, and not by the hotel, Tesla or any other third party. ParkingEye also specifically state that the permit is not just a registration, and you be issued a permit by the landowner BEFORE driving across the end of the driveway, registering after the fact is not enough. They also say that the permit is a document, not merely a registration, and you must be able to produce the document to avoid a fine.

They are unable to state who the landowner is but they do know it is not the hotel, and the hotel are not authorised to grant permits. The letter specifically says that the hotel cannot grant such a permit.

I still have zero understanding of the motive in installing a supercharger at this location. If they wish to discourage people driving onto their land, it would be better to put up a gate and have the location removed from the in-car mapping. Driving to this region via Thetford instead at the moment, there seems to be no issue there. Maybe it’s not the hotel who own the land, it all seems a total mess.
 

Rustybkts

Member
Feb 8, 2020
581
345
Leicestershire
I don't think these companies know what they are talking about. They issue these warnings to strike fear and its about time they were properly taken to task.
Tesla are paying for the use of the land, its hardly going to be free so surely legally all Tesla's can access the site as they are paying to fill up.

Can you imagine a filling station requiring all drivers to sign in? Are there any SC installations subject to the same conditions in Europe or is this a unique UK problem caused by these out of control legalised crooks.

Pity we don't know the small print that Tesla signed when leasing the land.
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
2,117
1,724
Norfolk
Friendly staff or not, I cannot agree that this location is ‘hassle free’ in any sense. I did eventually have my three-figure charge for visiting dropped, but the letter I received explains in black and white that no driver may enter this site without a permit, issued beforehand, by the landowner, and not by the hotel, Tesla or any other third party. ParkingEye also specifically state that the permit is not just a registration, and you be issued a permit by the landowner BEFORE driving across the end of the driveway, registering after the fact is not enough. They also say that the permit is a document, not merely a registration, and you must be able to produce the document to avoid a fine.

They are unable to state who the landowner is but they do know it is not the hotel, and the hotel are not authorised to grant permits. The letter specifically says that the hotel cannot grant such a permit.

I still have zero understanding of the motive in installing a supercharger at this location. If they wish to discourage people driving onto their land, it would be better to put up a gate and have the location removed from the in-car mapping. Driving to this region via Thetford instead at the moment, there seems to be no issue there. Maybe it’s not the hotel who own the land, it all seems a total mess.
What a complete load of b*****ks. Are they claiming that they don’t know who can issue a permit and that all hotel staff, contractors and so on require one. I’d send a copy to the hotel and ask for a explanation and sight of one of these permits. If a sensible response is not forthcoming copy the letters and replies to Tesla, the Parking Ombudsman, Norfolk County Council, Kings Lynn District Council, your MP and Grant Schapps and ask if anyone can explain how such an unobtainable and unreasonable document can be obtained.
 

HenryT

Member
Jan 29, 2020
688
565
Manchester
Friendly staff or not, I cannot agree that this location is ‘hassle free’ in any sense. I did eventually have my three-figure charge for visiting dropped, but the letter I received explains in black and white that no driver may enter this site without a permit, issued beforehand, by the landowner, and not by the hotel, Tesla or any other third party. ParkingEye also specifically state that the permit is not just a registration, and you be issued a permit by the landowner BEFORE driving across the end of the driveway, registering after the fact is not enough. They also say that the permit is a document, not merely a registration, and you must be able to produce the document to avoid a fine.
Entrapment. That's all these scams are about. To catch out the unwary/ignorant/unfortunate types out who have the misfortune to visit such premises.

That Tesla uses such sites is a disappointment but not really any surprise. I'm sure all Tesla is concerned about is finding an appropriate location for their hardware at a cost that meets their needs. If that cost is indirectly subsidised by mugging the users, so be it.
 

Ex Cop

Member
Jun 19, 2021
13
44
King's Lynn
Hi Tesla Owner's Club members, I'm not an owner myself (petrol-head, I'm afraid), but on Thursday my wife and her friend both received £100 invoices for parking at the Dragonfly Hotel in King's Lynn, and I want to cause Civil Enforcement Ltd as much of a headache as I can, so here I am.

I have also made a complaint to the Dragonfly Management, both in writing (on Thursday) and in person (yesterday) demanding that they take action to cancel these tickets as my wife and her friend were paying guests at the hotel on the date of the parking 'violation', but so far I have not had a satisfactory outcome from them.

As my username suggests, I'm a retired cop who served in this part of Norfolk. As such, I have a pretty good understanding of the law, both criminal and in respect of civil trespass, unspoken contracts and parking in both the public and private domain. I also like to be a thorn in the side of anyone who tells me 'rules is rules' without having read them themselves, or that it's more than their job's worth to sort out a problem they've caused.

So, with that in mind, if you have received a Parking Charge Notice from Civil Enforcement for charging your car at The Dragonfly Hotel in King's Lynn, or even just for parking there without following the rules on the signs - of which there really are so many now that the Hotel reception looks like the Headquarters of NCP Car Parks (which I find very unwelcoming for a 'hospitality' business) - you should challenge it whether you complied with the rules on the signs or not, for the following reasons:

1/ Charging your vehicle at a power point does not fit the legal definition of 'parking' so you cannot be made to pay for parking your car.

The legal definition of parking was determined by Lord Greene in Ashby v Tolhurst (1937). (in law, the older a legal precedent is the better as it means it's been tried and tested many times in different cases). His Lordship's judgement was that, in order for a car to be 'parked' you have to take it to a place and leave it there.

So, just as when someone takes their ICE car to a petrol station to fill it up they have no intention of leaving it there, when you take your EV to a charging station to top up your battery, you also have no intention of leaving it there, no matter how long it takes to charge (although I would suggest that the 20 minute top-up that the forum member who received this unexpectedly shocking charge (pun intended) is good evidence that they had no intention of leaving their car in that place).

2/ It is not possible to comply with the Parking Terms and Conditions as displayed on the signs at The Dragonfly Hotel, King's Lynn, because the Dragonfly Hotel is not adhering to those terms and conditions themselves.

As you can see from the signs below, Dragonfly Hotel guests/visitors must obtain a parking permit at the hotel reception. I parked in their car park yesterday, read the signs, walked in to their reception and asked for a parking permit.

They told me they don't provide parking permits.

Instead, you are required to read an enormous freestanding hoarding (taller and wider than me, which is saying something) which is sideways on at the reception desk so you can't see what's written on it until reception point it out to you, which tells you that you have to locate a touchscreen the other side of a partition wall and enter your registration or receive a £100 charge for breaching the parking conditions.

As the phrase 'obtain a parking permit' is using the word permit as a noun rather than a verb, as it would be in the phrase 'I permit you to park here', the parking permit referred to on the signs is a physical document, and the Hotel do not provide guests with such a document, so are in breach of the parking conditions they themselves have agreed on.

It was interesting to read that the initiator of this thread appears to have been told in writing that they should have obtained their physical parking permit from the Hotel before venturing onto the site, but how do you do that when, a) the sign outside tells you you're supposed to read and comply with the parking conditions signs inside the site, and b) the permits don't actually exist?

Additionally, failing to obtain a written permit to enter private land before doing so would represent a civil trespass, for which the landowner could file a case at a Civil Court, not automatically send you a £100 charge in payment for parking, so Civil Enforcement cannot legitimately issue a Parking Charge Notice to anybody for failing to comply with the sign at the entrance (permit holders only).

Interestingly, the first three signs that greet you when you enter the site all say the same thing, and that is 'Absolutely No Parking'.

That's clear enough to me, they're on the approach to the car park and form one of the conditions that you are accepting by entering, so you must not park at the Dragonfly Hotel or Civil Enforcement WILL send you a £100 Parking Charge Notice with accompanying threats. I have informed the Hotel Manager in writing that Civil Enforcement can legitimately charge him (or her), and everybody else parking in their car park, £100 per day for breaching that particular condition, but I haven't yet had a reply.

Anyway, quite why The Dragonfly Hotel, King's Lynn felt it needed to form a business relationship with these parking parasites is beyond me. The hotel is sited on a small industrial estate on the outskirts of a small Town that Jeremy Clarkson once described as being 'famous for being nowhere near anywhere else'. The hotel is more than a mile from the Town centre and railway station, so nobody in their right mind is going to park there and walk into Town, and there's plenty of free or cheap parking in Town anyway if you know where to look.

If you are a guest or visitor, your contract is with the Hotel, not the parking company, so Civil Enforcement are charging Dragonfly Hotel customers on behalf of the hotel. As such, of course the Hotel Manager should be able to revoke an invoice for payment (which is what the notice is) and I would encourage anyone who gets one to demand that the Hotel deals with it rather than expecting its customers to appeal themselves (while also appealing it yourself as they'll clearly ignore you). The idea is to make life so uncomfortable for the Hotel management that they'll sack their parking company.

I would also encourage anyone else who has received a Civil Enforcement Ltd. Parking Charge Notice for parking anywhere at all and which states on it that the breach relates to 'Permit Holders Only' to check at the venue where they got it if you can actually get a permit, and if the answer is 'no, it's all done online' as it was for me yesterday, then challenge the invoice on that basis.

As far as I can see, all that The Dragonfly gets out of the deal they have with these bullying parasites is an awful lot of hostile signs on their land, a reception that is now dominated by Car Parking Conditions signs and a looming PR disaster, as it's their regular customers, like my wife and her friend, both NHS key workers, who are least likely to be looking for signs threatening financial penalties for parking in breach of the small print when they visit a hospitality business they've been using for twenty years without ever having to register their cars before.

Finally, good luck to anyone who challenges one of these unfair Parking Charge Notices, and I'll be back with news of how our appeal goes once it's sorted.

IMG_20210617_130823841.jpg
IMG_20210617_130702632.jpg
IMG_20210617_130549422.jpg
 

M3noob

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Aug 22, 2019
685
509
Beyond the pale
Hi Tesla Owner's Club members, I'm not an owner myself (petrol-head, I'm afraid), but on Thursday my wife and her friend both received £100 invoices for parking at the Dragonfly Hotel in King's Lynn, and I want to cause Civil Enforcement Ltd as much of a headache as I can, so here I am.

I have also made a complaint to the Dragonfly Management, both in writing (on Thursday) and in person (yesterday) demanding that they take action to cancel these tickets as my wife and her friend were paying guests at the hotel on the date of the parking 'violation', but so far I have not had a satisfactory outcome from them.

As my username suggests, I'm a retired cop who served in this part of Norfolk. As such, I have a pretty good understanding of the law, both criminal and in respect of civil trespass, unspoken contracts and parking in both the public and private domain. I also like to be a thorn in the side of anyone who tells me 'rules is rules' without having read them themselves, or that it's more than their job's worth to sort out a problem they've caused.

So, with that in mind, if you have received a Parking Charge Notice from Civil Enforcement for charging your car at The Dragonfly Hotel in King's Lynn, or even just for parking there without following the rules on the signs - of which there really are so many now that the Hotel reception looks like the Headquarters of NCP Car Parks (which I find very unwelcoming for a 'hospitality' business) - you should challenge it whether you complied with the rules on the signs or not, for the following reasons:

1/ Charging your vehicle at a power point does not fit the legal definition of 'parking' so you cannot be made to pay for parking your car.

The legal definition of parking was determined by Lord Greene in Ashby v Tolhurst (1937). (in law, the older a legal precedent is the better as it means it's been tried and tested many times in different cases). His Lordship's judgement was that, in order for a car to be 'parked' you have to take it to a place and leave it there.

So, just as when someone takes their ICE car to a petrol station to fill it up they have no intention of leaving it there, when you take your EV to a charging station to top up your battery, you also have no intention of leaving it there, no matter how long it takes to charge (although I would suggest that the 20 minute top-up that the forum member who received this unexpectedly shocking charge (pun intended) is good evidence that they had no intention of leaving their car in that place).

2/ It is not possible to comply with the Parking Terms and Conditions as displayed on the signs at The Dragonfly Hotel, King's Lynn, because the Dragonfly Hotel is not adhering to those terms and conditions themselves.

As you can see from the signs below, Dragonfly Hotel guests/visitors must obtain a parking permit at the hotel reception. I parked in their car park yesterday, read the signs, walked in to their reception and asked for a parking permit.

They told me they don't provide parking permits.

Instead, you are required to read an enormous freestanding hoarding (taller and wider than me, which is saying something) which is sideways on at the reception desk so you can't see what's written on it until reception point it out to you, which tells you that you have to locate a touchscreen the other side of a partition wall and enter your registration or receive a £100 charge for breaching the parking conditions.

As the phrase 'obtain a parking permit' is using the word permit as a noun rather than a verb, as it would be in the phrase 'I permit you to park here', the parking permit referred to on the signs is a physical document, and the Hotel do not provide guests with such a document, so are in breach of the parking conditions they themselves have agreed on.

It was interesting to read that the initiator of this thread appears to have been told in writing that they should have obtained their physical parking permit from the Hotel before venturing onto the site, but how do you do that when, a) the sign outside tells you you're supposed to read and comply with the parking conditions signs inside the site, and b) the permits don't actually exist?

Additionally, failing to obtain a written permit to enter private land before doing so would represent a civil trespass, for which the landowner could file a case at a Civil Court, not automatically send you a £100 charge in payment for parking, so Civil Enforcement cannot legitimately issue a Parking Charge Notice to anybody for failing to comply with the sign at the entrance (permit holders only).

Interestingly, the first three signs that greet you when you enter the site all say the same thing, and that is 'Absolutely No Parking'.

That's clear enough to me, they're on the approach to the car park and form one of the conditions that you are accepting by entering, so you must not park at the Dragonfly Hotel or Civil Enforcement WILL send you a £100 Parking Charge Notice with accompanying threats. I have informed the Hotel Manager in writing that Civil Enforcement can legitimately charge him (or her), and everybody else parking in their car park, £100 per day for breaching that particular condition, but I haven't yet had a reply.

Anyway, quite why The Dragonfly Hotel, King's Lynn felt it needed to form a business relationship with these parking parasites is beyond me. The hotel is sited on a small industrial estate on the outskirts of a small Town that Jeremy Clarkson once described as being 'famous for being nowhere near anywhere else'. The hotel is more than a mile from the Town centre and railway station, so nobody in their right mind is going to park there and walk into Town, and there's plenty of free or cheap parking in Town anyway if you know where to look.

If you are a guest or visitor, your contract is with the Hotel, not the parking company, so Civil Enforcement are charging Dragonfly Hotel customers on behalf of the hotel. As such, of course the Hotel Manager should be able to revoke an invoice for payment (which is what the notice is) and I would encourage anyone who gets one to demand that the Hotel deals with it rather than expecting its customers to appeal themselves (while also appealing it yourself as they'll clearly ignore you). The idea is to make life so uncomfortable for the Hotel management that they'll sack their parking company.

I would also encourage anyone else who has received a Civil Enforcement Ltd. Parking Charge Notice for parking anywhere at all and which states on it that the breach relates to 'Permit Holders Only' to check at the venue where they got it if you can actually get a permit, and if the answer is 'no, it's all done online' as it was for me yesterday, then challenge the invoice on that basis.

As far as I can see, all that The Dragonfly gets out of the deal they have with these bullying parasites is an awful lot of hostile signs on their land, a reception that is now dominated by Car Parking Conditions signs and a looming PR disaster, as it's their regular customers, like my wife and her friend, both NHS key workers, who are least likely to be looking for signs threatening financial penalties for parking in breach of the small print when they visit a hospitality business they've been using for twenty years without ever having to register their cars before.

Finally, good luck to anyone who challenges one of these unfair Parking Charge Notices, and I'll be back with news of how our appeal goes once it's sorted.

View attachment 675141View attachment 675142View attachment 675143
As a lawyer (not of this bailiwick) the only cudgel I could add to this succinct analysis is to air these injustices with the local and national media. Squeaky wheels get the grease.
 

Ex Cop

Member
Jun 19, 2021
13
44
King's Lynn
I appreciate your support, M3Noob.

And yes, the Hotel have until Monday to get in touch before I start making some noise in the local press/tv about this. Oh, and my wife and her friend both have an awful lot of social media contacts in their phones. There will also be a review going on Trip Advisor, Booking.com, Trivago, was-your-hotel-experience-sh!t.com (I made that one up), and any other Hotel review website I can find if Dragonfly don't deal with this themselves.

I'd recommend anyone who had fallen foul of these unfair parking charges to tell all their friends, and for them to tell all their friends, etc., etc.
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
2,117
1,724
Norfolk
Hi Tesla Owner's Club members, I'm not an owner myself (petrol-head, I'm afraid), but on Thursday my wife and her friend both received £100 invoices for parking at the Dragonfly Hotel in King's Lynn, and I want to cause Civil Enforcement Ltd as much of a headache as I can, so here I am.

I have also made a complaint to the Dragonfly Management, both in writing (on Thursday) and in person (yesterday) demanding that they take action to cancel these tickets as my wife and her friend were paying guests at the hotel on the date of the parking 'violation', but so far I have not had a satisfactory outcome from them.

As my username suggests, I'm a retired cop who served in this part of Norfolk. As such, I have a pretty good understanding of the law, both criminal and in respect of civil trespass, unspoken contracts and parking in both the public and private domain. I also like to be a thorn in the side of anyone who tells me 'rules is rules' without having read them themselves, or that it's more than their job's worth to sort out a problem they've caused.

So, with that in mind, if you have received a Parking Charge Notice from Civil Enforcement for charging your car at The Dragonfly Hotel in King's Lynn, or even just for parking there without following the rules on the signs - of which there really are so many now that the Hotel reception looks like the Headquarters of NCP Car Parks (which I find very unwelcoming for a 'hospitality' business) - you should challenge it whether you complied with the rules on the signs or not, for the following reasons:

1/ Charging your vehicle at a power point does not fit the legal definition of 'parking' so you cannot be made to pay for parking your car.

The legal definition of parking was determined by Lord Greene in Ashby v Tolhurst (1937). (in law, the older a legal precedent is the better as it means it's been tried and tested many times in different cases). His Lordship's judgement was that, in order for a car to be 'parked' you have to take it to a place and leave it there.

So, just as when someone takes their ICE car to a petrol station to fill it up they have no intention of leaving it there, when you take your EV to a charging station to top up your battery, you also have no intention of leaving it there, no matter how long it takes to charge (although I would suggest that the 20 minute top-up that the forum member who received this unexpectedly shocking charge (pun intended) is good evidence that they had no intention of leaving their car in that place).

2/ It is not possible to comply with the Parking Terms and Conditions as displayed on the signs at The Dragonfly Hotel, King's Lynn, because the Dragonfly Hotel is not adhering to those terms and conditions themselves.

As you can see from the signs below, Dragonfly Hotel guests/visitors must obtain a parking permit at the hotel reception. I parked in their car park yesterday, read the signs, walked in to their reception and asked for a parking permit.

They told me they don't provide parking permits.

Instead, you are required to read an enormous freestanding hoarding (taller and wider than me, which is saying something) which is sideways on at the reception desk so you can't see what's written on it until reception point it out to you, which tells you that you have to locate a touchscreen the other side of a partition wall and enter your registration or receive a £100 charge for breaching the parking conditions.

As the phrase 'obtain a parking permit' is using the word permit as a noun rather than a verb, as it would be in the phrase 'I permit you to park here', the parking permit referred to on the signs is a physical document, and the Hotel do not provide guests with such a document, so are in breach of the parking conditions they themselves have agreed on.

It was interesting to read that the initiator of this thread appears to have been told in writing that they should have obtained their physical parking permit from the Hotel before venturing onto the site, but how do you do that when, a) the sign outside tells you you're supposed to read and comply with the parking conditions signs inside the site, and b) the permits don't actually exist?

Additionally, failing to obtain a written permit to enter private land before doing so would represent a civil trespass, for which the landowner could file a case at a Civil Court, not automatically send you a £100 charge in payment for parking, so Civil Enforcement cannot legitimately issue a Parking Charge Notice to anybody for failing to comply with the sign at the entrance (permit holders only).

Interestingly, the first three signs that greet you when you enter the site all say the same thing, and that is 'Absolutely No Parking'.

That's clear enough to me, they're on the approach to the car park and form one of the conditions that you are accepting by entering, so you must not park at the Dragonfly Hotel or Civil Enforcement WILL send you a £100 Parking Charge Notice with accompanying threats. I have informed the Hotel Manager in writing that Civil Enforcement can legitimately charge him (or her), and everybody else parking in their car park, £100 per day for breaching that particular condition, but I haven't yet had a reply.

Anyway, quite why The Dragonfly Hotel, King's Lynn felt it needed to form a business relationship with these parking parasites is beyond me. The hotel is sited on a small industrial estate on the outskirts of a small Town that Jeremy Clarkson once described as being 'famous for being nowhere near anywhere else'. The hotel is more than a mile from the Town centre and railway station, so nobody in their right mind is going to park there and walk into Town, and there's plenty of free or cheap parking in Town anyway if you know where to look.

If you are a guest or visitor, your contract is with the Hotel, not the parking company, so Civil Enforcement are charging Dragonfly Hotel customers on behalf of the hotel. As such, of course the Hotel Manager should be able to revoke an invoice for payment (which is what the notice is) and I would encourage anyone who gets one to demand that the Hotel deals with it rather than expecting its customers to appeal themselves (while also appealing it yourself as they'll clearly ignore you). The idea is to make life so uncomfortable for the Hotel management that they'll sack their parking company.

I would also encourage anyone else who has received a Civil Enforcement Ltd. Parking Charge Notice for parking anywhere at all and which states on it that the breach relates to 'Permit Holders Only' to check at the venue where they got it if you can actually get a permit, and if the answer is 'no, it's all done online' as it was for me yesterday, then challenge the invoice on that basis.

As far as I can see, all that The Dragonfly gets out of the deal they have with these bullying parasites is an awful lot of hostile signs on their land, a reception that is now dominated by Car Parking Conditions signs and a looming PR disaster, as it's their regular customers, like my wife and her friend, both NHS key workers, who are least likely to be looking for signs threatening financial penalties for parking in breach of the small print when they visit a hospitality business they've been using for twenty years without ever having to register their cars before.

Finally, good luck to anyone who challenges one of these unfair Parking Charge Notices, and I'll be back with news of how our appeal goes once it's sorted.

View attachment 675141View attachment 675142View attachment 675143
Welcome and well done you. That’s an extremely useful insight into true law and made up parking parasite law. God knows why Government hasn’t had the balls to kick them into touch long ago.
It strikes me that this is just the tip of a rapidly forming iceberg. In the not too distant future there will be many hotels with EV charging in their car parks and similar parasites queuing up to make money. Grant Schapps needs to earn his money!
 
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Ex Cop

Member
Jun 19, 2021
13
44
King's Lynn
Thanks Dilly.

Just to make it clear, the car park parasites like Criminal, sorry Civil Enforcement Ltd., aren't sending you a fine for breaking a national or local law, they are sending you an invoice to pay for parking due to a breach of the terms and conditions of using the car park.

By parking there in breach of those arbitrary conditions you haven't broken any law, and if you fail to pay their invoice, you are also not committing any offence and can't be taken to a Criminal Court. All they can do is make a claim to the Small Claims Court which deals with civil debts, which this would amount to, exactly if you failed to pay for something that you'd bought on credit but failed to make the payments.

I have read that they're quite a litigious company but that they use the tactic of taking you to Court and then not turning up for the hearing themselves, so you win by default having wasted a lot of your valuable time (and money if you hired a lawyer to fight your case - no offence M3Noob). But, if you don't turn up they win their case by default, which is what they're banking on.

They do try to make it sound like you've broken the law and are being fined by referring to their invoice, or Parking Charge Notice, as a PCN, which if you google it, you'll find is what a fine issued by a Council for breaching lawful parking regulations is called, as it's abbreviated from Penalty Charge Notice.

I still haven't heard back from the Dragonfly management, so I guess I'll be testing the venue not adhering to its own terms and conditions appeal on Monday. If that's successful, then we need a national campaign to force these parasites to pay to replace all their signs and change their despicable practices.

Oh, and this is what the Dragonfly Hotel says about its car park on their own website, with no mention of parking enforcement agents at work, even in the comprehensive T's & C's page -

IMG_20210617_134828228.jpg
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
2,117
1,724
Norfolk
Thanks Dilly.

Just to make it clear, the car park parasites like Criminal, sorry Civil Enforcement Ltd., aren't sending you a fine for breaking a national or local law, they are sending you an invoice to pay for parking due to a breach of the terms and conditions of using the car park.

By parking there in breach of those arbitrary conditions you haven't broken any law, and if you fail to pay their invoice, you are also not committing any offence and can't be taken to a Criminal Court. All they can do is make a claim to the Small Claims Court which deals with civil debts, which this would amount to, exactly if you failed to pay for something that you'd bought on credit but failed to make the payments.

I have read that they're quite a litigious company but that they use the tactic of taking you to Court and then not turning up for the hearing themselves, so you win by default having wasted a lot of your valuable time (and money if you hired a lawyer to fight your case - no offence M3Noob). But, if you don't turn up they win their case by default, which is what they're banking on.

They do try to make it sound like you've broken the law and are being fined by referring to their invoice, or Parking Charge Notice, as a PCN, which if you google it, you'll find is what a fine issued by a Council for breaching lawful parking regulations is called, as it's abbreviated from Penalty Charge Notice.

I still haven't heard back from the Dragonfly management, so I guess I'll be testing the venue not adhering to its own terms and conditions appeal on Monday. If that's successful, then we need a national campaign to force these parasites to pay to replace all their signs and change their despicable practices.

Oh, and this is what the Dragonfly Hotel says about its car park on their own website, with no mention of parking enforcement agents at work, even in the comprehensive T's & C's page -

View attachment 675241
Thanks @Ex Cop
The ample free parking is presumably in the town centre 😂
 
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Billbrown1982

TM3 LR 2021 | Red | FSD
Dec 21, 2020
412
223
Basildon
So fantastic to see someone taking these parasites to task. I've had quite a few personal parking tickets thrown out by appealing myself via POPLA but in all honesty have never had the energy to make as much of a fuss about it as perhaps I should have.

Scrolling back up I notice that the letter someone received after having his ticket thrown out says that they can't tell you the land owner?

Well one of the BPA's rules (which these guys are a member of) is that there must be evidence of Landowner Authority for them to issue the ticket in the first place otherwise it'll be thrown out every time anyway.
 
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Ex Cop

Member
Jun 19, 2021
13
44
King's Lynn
Thanks for your support, Billbrown.

In the case of The Dragonfly Hotel, if you take your EV there for a top-up you'll see that there's no doubt that Civil Enforcement Ltd. have permission from the landowner to operate on their site. In fact, there are currently so many confusing, contradictory, inaccurate and threatening parking restriction signs outside the entrance, along the driveway, in the car park, at the Supercharger points, attached to the building, in the foyer and at the reception desk that you'd think that Civil Enforcement Ltd. owns the Hotel.

Moderator comment - OT part of this post and other OT posts moved to The Pub - OT posts and discussions
Please keep threads on topic
 
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Zakalwe

Member
Oct 16, 2020
449
436
UK
Welcome and well done you. That’s an extremely useful insight into true law and made up parking parasite law. God knows why Government hasn’t had the balls to kick them into touch long ago.
It strikes me that this is just the tip of a rapidly forming iceberg. In the not too distant future there will be many hotels with EV charging in their car parks and similar parasites queuing up to make money. Grant Schapps needs to earn his money!
What we have now IS the result of government involvement! Prior to gov involvement, parking companies could clamp and tow away with impunity. This was outlawed. However the Protection of Freedoms Act in 2012 allowed the PPC to sue through the courts for alleged breach of contract. Ally that to the nice little earner that the DVLA has which allows private companies to get registered keeper data and you have the current situation.
Thanks Dilly.

Just to make it clear, the car park parasites like Criminal, sorry Civil Enforcement Ltd., aren't sending you a fine for breaking a national or local law, they are sending you an invoice to pay for parking due to a breach of the terms and conditions of using the car park.

By parking there in breach of those arbitrary conditions you haven't broken any law, and if you fail to pay their invoice, you are also not committing any offence and can't be taken to a Criminal Court. All they can do is make a claim to the Small Claims Court which deals with civil debts, which this would amount to, exactly if you failed to pay for something that you'd bought on credit but failed to make the payments.

I have read that they're quite a litigious company but that they use the tactic of taking you to Court and then not turning up for the hearing themselves, so you win by default having wasted a lot of your valuable time (and money if you hired a lawyer to fight your case - no offence M3Noob). But, if you don't turn up they win their case by default, which is what they're banking on.

They do try to make it sound like you've broken the law and are being fined by referring to their invoice, or Parking Charge Notice, as a PCN, which if you google it, you'll find is what a fine issued by a Council for breaching lawful parking regulations is called, as it's abbreviated from Penalty Charge Notice.

I still haven't heard back from the Dragonfly management, so I guess I'll be testing the venue not adhering to its own terms and conditions appeal on Monday. If that's successful, then we need a national campaign to force these parasites to pay to replace all their signs and change their despicable practices.

Oh, and this is what the Dragonfly Hotel says about its car park on their own website, with no mention of parking enforcement agents at work, even in the comprehensive T's & C's page -

View attachment 675241
Head over to the Money Saving Expert forum and join the Parking and motoring section. There's some extremely knowledgeable folks there (Coupon-mad for example) who know the process inside out as well as people who regularly appear those who act in court.
 

pdk42

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
1,093
1,073
Leamington
The whole parking enforcement industry is close to banditry in how it operates. I understand the need for landlords with parking spaces to control their use - how else to stop the inconsiderate hoards from abusing the facility - but the problem is how these guys operate and treat drivers. There are too many unreasonable "tickets" issued and the appeal process is hard wired in favour of the operator. The landlords need to be more involved in my view and not just outsource the problem to the bandits. A simpler system would be to have entry/exit gates and charge for parking with discounts/coupons for bona fide users (hotel guests, EV charging etc).
 
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Ex Cop

Member
Jun 19, 2021
13
44
King's Lynn
Agree with all of the above and I'll take a look at the Money Saving Expert site.

It's the whole unfairness of the thing that gets my goat - the people who are getting these invoices are legitimate customers, not people sneaking on to the site just to steal a free parking space.

The hotel's in the middle of bloody nowhere on the outskirts of a Town containing exactly one horse. That Town is hanging off the edge of the middle of nowhere to start with, and for anyone parking there without authority, there's literally nowhere to go to on foot that doesn't have its own free parking anyway. The industrial estate is just full of Car Dealerships, booze wholesalers and sex-toy shops (yes, really), while the nearest shops and competing restaurants are about half a mile away across a very busy road on foot and all have their own free car parks.

I've now appealed my wife's Parking Charge Notice and we've also added a review on Tripadvisor for The Dragonfly, as I informed them I wanted them to make contact to resolve the issue before today and they haven't.

Our review will go on once it's been through the validation process, but another review has gone on over the weekend where guests staying at the Dragonfly received a £100 parking charge because they drove their car off site during their stay and returned without going through the process of re-entering their vehicle on the touch-screen. Again, the hotel management aren't interested in helping them.

I'll keep you posted about the success or otherwise of the appeal.
 

Andrew_SE23

Member
Jul 3, 2019
137
122
London
I’d also suggest that anyone affected leaves a Google review. Keep it short, honest and accurate, but I doubt the hotel will change their policy of using Parking Eye unless the cost to their PR outweighs their commissions from Parking Eye from fines being issued on their land.
 

Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
2,985
2,934
Shropshire
I appreciate your support, M3Noob.

And yes, the Hotel have until Monday to get in touch before I start making some noise in the local press/tv about this. Oh, and my wife and her friend both have an awful lot of social media contacts in their phones. There will also be a review going on Trip Advisor, Booking.com, Trivago, was-your-hotel-experience-sh!t.com (I made that one up), and any other Hotel review website I can find if Dragonfly don't deal with this themselves.

I'd recommend anyone who had fallen foul of these unfair parking charges to tell all their friends, and for them to tell all their friends, etc., etc.
Trip adviser is a good shout. Some places take that rating VERY seriously. There are already a couple of comments about parking including this reply from the Hotel which is an interesting insight in that they say earn nothing from the relationship. looks like they think they are getting security out of it rather than cash.

Our car park is managed through a third party for the safety and security of our guests, and the prevention of abuse of the facility, and has been in situ since Jan 2021.
Surya Hotels, T/A Dragonfly Hotels do not receive any income from this agreement, nor does it have any input into the issuing of penalties.
Parking remains completely free of charge for all of our customers, visitors, residents, and guests, who simply need to inform us of their car details.
The system automatically records the number plate of all vehicles entering the car park, and issues a penalty unless the vehicle:
a) Leaves the car park within 10 minutes
b) Registers on the touchscreen tablets on reception at any time during their visit.
In regards to the other comments made, I can only apologise for the level of guest service you received and I will be addressing the team to ensure this situation does not arise again in the future.


I am not suggesting that any random person should make up a comment about the parking 😇 but anyone who has visited the place to charge, fined, or not could comment on how confusing it is. Would not take that many comments to drag their rating down.
and maybe the other SuC locations with similar systems as well....
It would be a genuine public service.
 

Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
2,985
2,934
Shropshire
As a general rule. If you ever have to enter details into one of these terminals take a picture on your phone. People get fined even if they have. And they issue no receipt. how hard would it be to take an optional email address and send a confirmation but there is nothing in it for them.
 

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