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PCN at supercharger Kings Lynn despite reasonable efforts

Cardo

Member
Sep 22, 2020
429
286
Surrey, UK
Sadly, my time isn't worth the fight so if the manager refuses to undo it (which I think they will, as I was neither a hotel visitor nor guest), I will just have to pay it rather than sending some tweets. I am often away for a couple of months, I daren't fight anything like this lest I come back and find I've missed court papers and got a CCJ or something.
And, sadly, this is exactly how these parking vultures get away with it.
 

M3noob

Supporting Member
Aug 22, 2019
589
434
Beyond the pale
The hotel is incorrect.
They have contracted the PPC to monitor the carpark. They have the absolute authority to instruct their contracted partner to cancel a ticket.
Find the CEOs details and start a Twitter and email campaign (this has worked really well with Morrison' s supermarket carparks).
Get on the Money saving expert forum and follow the Newbies thread exactly, otherwise you may find yourself with a court action.
Please provide the names and addresses should you go for the papering approach. I'd be happy to pour scorn on all who may have had a hand in this travesty.
 

HenryT

Member
Jan 29, 2020
559
453
Manchester
Why do you have to prove there wasn’t signage- they should have to prove there was
Unhelpfully, there is a photo of the sign on a wooden fence on ZapMap in the discussion of King's Lynn Supercharger. The photo was posted by a user called kr087 and the listing is shown as '1 month ago' with the comment "Register at reception"


ZapMap photo
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,782
1,414
Norfolk
Unhelpful in the situation, but as I had planned to drop in there on the way home from my Covid jab, I rang the hotel only to be told that reception is open 24/7 to allow registration for parking.
I can only presume they were taking a toilet break when the OP turned up.

I would pay the fine with a “Without Prejudice“ letter and kick some serious butt when time permits.
 

pdk42

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
1,053
1,031
Leamington
Couldn't disagree more. I've had 3 tickets overturned thanks to POPLA - Two were totaly unfair but in all honesty, 1 they had me bang to rights and I was being lazy at 2am parking in one of the 10 empty parent and child spots and got a ticket. Still overturned due to a technicality.

Well, I guess we can only go on our own experience. In my case, I parked at a railway station and used a phone-based payment service. I paid a little late for their checking, but still way before I returned to the car (and could prove it) but got a ticket anyhow. POPLA refused to entertain my appeal pointing out that the signs say I shouldn't leave the car without paying - despite most users doing exactly that. I never paid the charge in the end simply by repeatedly pointing out that I did in fact pay for my parking and that I had not caused any loss that would justify a claim for damages against their implied contract.

The fact remains that POPLA is paid for BPA, the trade-body for these parking enforcement companies, so it cannot in any way be considered independent. It is a clear conflict of interest scenario.
 
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Alistairuk

Member
Jun 25, 2020
460
304
Scotland
May I suggest that you get the contact details for the hotels general manager or request the total idiot manning the reception desk to have them contact you. The hotel will absolutely have the overall ability to cancel the “fine”, they’re the ones that contract the parking company.

Sounds like you spoke with some idiot at reception who went for the fob you off approach with some bullshit story about charging taxi drivers and delivery drivers to drop off in an attempt to get rid of you. Perhaps at the time you have been there they were the ones that were meant to be there and you’ve basically hi-lighted they were off skiving
 
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FlyingHappily

Member
Jul 9, 2020
16
38
London
Unhelpfully, there is a photo of the sign on a wooden fence on ZapMap in the discussion of King's Lynn Supercharger. The photo was posted by a user called kr087 and the listing is shown as '1 month ago' with the comment "Register at reception"


ZapMap photo

This ZapMap link isn’t supercharger signage or even about charging and is not the signage I looked for. This is the same sign posted earlier which now I have zoomed in on, it is the hotel sign for the neighbouring hotel and absolutely nothing to do with the supercharger. It specifically says it’s for parking in the hotel car-park, and also that this is only permitted for hotel visitors and guests. We did look at this one all three of us but we were not bona fide hotel visitors or guests, and didn’t park in the hotel car park. It made me worry though which was why I tried the door. The supercharger is not the car park, it is it’s whole own enclosure that just comes from the same driveway. I didn’t park there before or after supercharging.

I looked for the red Tesla signs instructing what to do when connecting to the superchargers. And also any instructions included in the in car navigation and on the web page. I walked all around the superchargers and saw no instructional signs whatsoever for any process while charging. If they are there now, they definitely weren’t then.

Despite posters here and even Tesla saying that there are no private chargers and this charger is public, the hotel have answered saying that these chargers are in fact not for public use and can only be used by permit holders and that this is the cause of my problem.

I could not be any more confused about what is going on here, or why there is a permit system at this one site or how to get a permit or how it all works. Feel a bit exasperated. Was I meant to buy a permit at the hotel reception before charging up? Maybe they will accept a late payment for the permit instead of the £100 fine for non-payment… will try tomorrow and maybe they will sell me one ‘after the fact’
 

HenryT

Member
Jan 29, 2020
559
453
Manchester
There is another picture on the ZapMap discussion of the King's Lynn superchargers taken through the windscreen of a user which seems to show the same notice on a fence between the two banks of chargers - see here https://www.zap-map.com/uploads/202103/img-897364528.jpg (also from '1 month ago', by a user called 'grunty')

You're quite correct to say it doesn't mention supercharging, but given its location and the fact that I'm sufficiently cynical to expect 'parking eye' or some similar bunch of gunslingers to be policing the site, I would have expected Hotel Visitors to have included me. (I have also followed a similar discussion on here regarding another charger in a hotel car park (Scotch Corner?) with a similar setup.).

It may be worth an appeal as you couldn't get access to reception to register, which is the only option the sign instructs you to take. Likewise, if the reception was locked and registration wasn't possible, I'd tell them to take you to court as you could expect a magistrate to throw it out anyway. How could you comply with the instruction to register at reception if you were locked out?

(Like you, I really cannot abide the increasing use of remote control extortion and have fallen foul of it myself by stopping for 20 minutes on a deserted retail carpark at 11pm on a Sunday night to wait for my kids. The fact that the government via DVLC also profit from it by selling the information makes it even more painful)
 
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Billbrown1982

TM3 LR 2021 | Red | FSD
Dec 21, 2020
362
188
Basildon
Well, I guess we can only go on our own experience. In my case, I parked at a railway station and used a phone-based payment service. I paid a little late for their checking, but still way before I returned to the car (and could prove it) but got a ticket anyhow. POPLA refused to entertain my appeal pointing out that the signs say I shouldn't leave the car without paying - despite most users doing exactly that. I never paid the charge in the end simply by repeatedly pointing out that I did in fact pay for my parking and that I had not caused any loss that would justify a claim for damages against their implied contract.

The fact remains that POPLA is paid for BPA, the trade-body for these parking enforcement companies, so it cannot in any way be considered independent. It is a clear conflict of interest scenario.

With all due respect, thats a night and day situation right there. Lets be honest, you were lazy with regards to paying promptly, got caught out and then tried to argue the fact that you did pay, but late.

A proper POPLA appeal would cover at least 7 different factors at a bare minimum, so I can almost guarantee you would have got away with it if you had put the work in, but unfortunately it looks like you focused on the single and unfortunately, most damning point of all. That you didn't follow the signage.

There are literally thousands of posters on the MSE forums that have all had their appeals accepted by POPLA and honestly, very few that are rejected, IF, they followed all the guides properly.

As for the OP - I'm damn tempted to "visit" that hotel myself, just so that I can get a ticket and then open up a whole world of hurt on them. This whole situation is rediculous.

The buck should really stop at Tesla though, as their nav took you there in the first place. Unfortunately we all know the chances of actually reaching them about the issue are slim to none.
 
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pdk42

Active Member
Jul 17, 2019
1,053
1,031
Leamington
With all due respect, thats a night and day situation right there. Lets be honest, you were lazy with regards to paying promptly, got caught out and then tried to argue the fact that you did pay, but late.

A proper POPLA appeal would cover at least 7 different factors at a bare minimum, so I can almost guarantee you would have got away with it if you had put the work in, but unfortunately it looks like you focused on the single and unfortunately, most damning point of all. That you didn't follow the signage.

There are literally thousands of posters on the MSE forums that have all had their appeals accepted by POPLA and honestly, very few that are rejected, IF, they followed all the guides properly.

As for the OP - I'm damn tempted to "visit" that hotel myself, just so that I can get a ticket and then open up a whole world of hurt on them. This whole situation is rediculous.

The buck should really stop at Tesla though, as their nav took you there in the first place. Unfortunately we all know the chances of actually reaching them about the issue are slim to none.
The problem though is that POPLA‘s process is narrow and loaded in favour of the operator. In my case it was 100% clear that I’d paid well before I returned and that I was a repeat customer of long standing. An independent appeal process would consider that. Doing otherwise is just trying to screw customers on technicalities.
 
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Billbrown1982

TM3 LR 2021 | Red | FSD
Dec 21, 2020
362
188
Basildon
The problem though is that POPLA‘s process is narrow and loaded in favour of the operator. In my case it was 100% clear that I’d paid well before I returned and that I was a repeat customer of long standing. An independent appeal process would consider that. Doing otherwise is just trying to screw customers on technicalities.

Its unfortunate that was your experience with them. I won't even pretend to say that POPLA is perfect, far from it, but in my experience at least, its a damn site better than trying to deal with the vultures directly. Cause they NEVER back down.
 

FlyingHappily

Member
Jul 9, 2020
16
38
London
There is another picture on the ZapMap discussion of the King's Lynn superchargers taken through the windscreen of a user which seems to show the same notice on a fence between the two banks of chargers - see here https://www.zap-map.com/uploads/202103/img-897364528.jpg (also from '1 month ago', by a user called 'grunty')

The signs on the fence I thought meant it OK to charge. They specifically say ‘No parking here - electric vehicle charging only’. And have a yellow warning thing, I think maybe a picture of a car plugged in. I genuinely thought that being actively plugged in for just the limited period it takes to charge, was not falling foul of the yellow signs warning ‘no parking electric vehicle charging only’ and that these superchargers were meant for charging up on a journey. I think this system is absolutely awful. I knew to look for signs but thought these would be self explanatory and the pictures online showed signs with a Tesla red and saying what a person charging their car needed to do.

These signs are part of the reason for my confusion. They specifically say that they are not part of the car park, and are just for electric vehicle charging. And they are at every charging point.
 

Kenners

Member
Sep 29, 2019
200
174
London
This is the sign in the middle of the superchargers


14BABEDD-86AC-4330-AD7E-158808A6DB64.jpeg

A8C3C1A3-9575-4FA9-9D64-2E31F583F89B.jpeg
I presume you could get some number plate covers to put on and remove before using these sites. As they are private land there is no obligation to display plates. And usually road leading up to them is in a service station, so is also private land. So you can stop and put them on before you enter hotel camera range.

Then they'd have to phone up Tesla to ask who was charging!
 

Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
1,782
1,414
Norfolk
This ZapMap link isn’t supercharger signage or even about charging and is not the signage I looked for. This is the same sign posted earlier which now I have zoomed in on, it is the hotel sign for the neighbouring hotel and absolutely nothing to do with the supercharger. It specifically says it’s for parking in the hotel car-park, and also that this is only permitted for hotel visitors and guests. We did look at this one all three of us but we were not bona fide hotel visitors or guests, and didn’t park in the hotel car park. It made me worry though which was why I tried the door. The supercharger is not the car park, it is it’s whole own enclosure that just comes from the same driveway. I didn’t park there before or after supercharging.

I looked for the red Tesla signs instructing what to do when connecting to the superchargers. And also any instructions included in the in car navigation and on the web page. I walked all around the superchargers and saw no instructional signs whatsoever for any process while charging. If they are there now, they definitely weren’t then.

Despite posters here and even Tesla saying that there are no private chargers and this charger is public, the hotel have answered saying that these chargers are in fact not for public use and can only be used by permit holders and that this is the cause of my problem.

I could not be any more confused about what is going on here, or why there is a permit system at this one site or how to get a permit or how it all works. Feel a bit exasperated. Was I meant to buy a permit at the hotel reception before charging up? Maybe they will accept a late payment for the permit instead of the £100 fine for non-payment… will try tomorrow and maybe they will sell me one ‘after the fact’
When I spoke to the hotel yesterday, there is no permit and you pay nothing. All that was required was to enter your details on an iPad.
sadly the hotel messed up and you couldn’t gain access. its supposed accessible 24/7 even during lockdown.
 
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Tony Hoyle

Active Member
May 7, 2019
1,013
613
Stockport, UK
Charging taxi drivers wouldn't end well for them.. a reasonable number of people will get to a hotel by Taxi and if the drivers refused to go there it would hurt their reputation even more than it does now.

Tesla really should clamp down on this stuff. I don't want going to a supercharger to carry with it the risk of punitive charges because of some random policy by the site owner, which could change at any time.
 
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Rustybkts

Member
Feb 8, 2020
549
326
Leicestershire
Despite posters here and even Tesla saying that there are no private chargers and this charger is public, the hotel have answered saying that these chargers are in fact not for public use and can only be used by permit holders and that this is the cause of my problem.
That is the most rediculous thing I have read yet here! NOT FOR PUBLIC USE? These are Rapids, not destination chargers and I think the reason this discussion has got so out of hand is because the toad answering the phone at the hotel is way below the pay grade/mental ability to call the parking company to get the charge cancelled. Charging taxi's and pizza delivery drivers would never happen.

It is very standard procedure and in normal times they will have guests regularly forgetting about logging in.

In my estimation, the avarage Tesla driver is likely to be a regular user of hotels and its about time these Supercharger sites were sorted regarding these punitive "penalties".
Personally my wish is that these companies should be hounded to extinction. £100 has massive profit in it. £20 would be more sensible and the reason I fought "Parking Eye" over a Leicester car park and won!
 
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FlyingHappily

Member
Jul 9, 2020
16
38
London
Hotel have now agreed to instruct their contracted firm 'Civil Enforcement Ltd' to cancel the fine. I still don't know for sure what the system is - one poster writes here that there is no permit, but both Civil Enforcement Ltd and hotel staff were adamant that only permit holders are permitted to use this charger. And yet another member of hotel staff was equally adamant that no permit existed.

I feel like some of this is maybe a legal mechanism. As now I am looking for these tiny signs, I have spotted that my local Shell station actually has a very similar one saying that the Shell station is private land and for permit holders only. But I haven't ever been fined while filling up a petrol car there. Maybe there is some legal reason that you can't just make parking 'forbidden' but you can say it's only for permit holders?

I wrote to the hotel manager with a picture of the red signs at the Northampton site which to me are much clearer that an action is required and what that action is, suggesting that they may consider having similar signs.

Will definitely not visit this particular supercharger again. And will try and stick to the motorway services superchargers or the Northampton one where I know the system. If the other non-motorway locations are as abstruse to use as this Kings Lynn one, I am not taking a chance again.
 

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