Phantom Braking

[Gilliland]

Tesla is doing things differently than other car manufacturers. Their approach is totally unique, using neural nets and deep learning with surround cameras that can see in all directions around the car. Most every other manufacturer uses basic radar, or lidar, or a combination of a camera or two plus those other sensors for their TACC.

We bought into the technology with Tesla, with the knowledge that Tesla is on the cutting edge and trying new things. So be patient and work with the company to help them reduce it. If you wanted a "dumb cruise control" system, or basic TACC that most other manufacturers have, I recommend buying one of those cars and waiting until you read that Tesla has solved the problems that are bothering you.

You're right, but I think a lot of us have a foot in both camps. We want to see Tesla succeed, and we want to be along for the ride. But we don't want to give up the more basic capabilities that we have had in more mainstream models. If these two were mutually exclusive, I could see it, but they are not. It would be easy for Tesla to give us basic "dumb" cruise control while they are perfecting their more advanced version of it.

And even when TACC is perfect, there will be times when basic cruise control will be preferred by some drivers. There are driving situations where even a perfectly implemented TACC is not as useful as "dumb" cruise control.

 

[Dewg]

It would be easy for Tesla to give us basic "dumb" cruise control while they are perfecting their more advanced version of it.

I've seen many times where people tweet their suggestions or requests, tagging Elon, and he responds. Perhaps if enough people tweeted requesting old-school cruise control while PB is being worked on, and tagging Elon, perhaps he may look into it.

Otherwise, it's their company and product. If Elon doesn't want to provide it, we don't get it.

 

[JustJohn]

I will try to ignore your hysterics and just focus on the issues. Mazda's recall did not affect my car. Nonetheless, it was not a recall based on TACC, it was based on their collision avoidance system. We've talked about this distinction before, but you are still confusing the two.

It's not confusion. It's deliberately ignoring holes in your own argument since it doesn't advance the deification of Tesla.

 

[tm3dlr]

Ah, we have another "I'm not gonna bother to read anything, but respond anyway" contibutor!

Guess what? You'll get the same fact-based response as the stuff you didn't read.


If everyone with an adaptive cruise system has the same "problem" then on what do you base the idea "tesla" has a serious problem?

It's not a "problem" it's an inherent limitation of the system

it's designed to detect if there's something it needs to slow down not to hit.

Sometimes it detects such a thing when there isn't one.

Not just Teslas system- but EVERYONES system.

The owners manuals even call this out, for every brand

Because all of them are set up to prefer "slowing down without reason" to "hitting something to avoid slowing down"

Your claim is every adaptive cruise system has the current phantom braking problem Tesla has?

You can't be serious.

It seems to me you are just trolling though

 

[hatch]

Unfortunately, many here, perhaps most here, use the term "phantom braking" to refer to both of these situations. I think we would be much better off if we could save the term "phantom braking" for the severe errors in collision avoidance, and find another term to describe the (relatively) minor speed variations that occur in Tesla's Traffic Aware Cruise Control.

Herky-Jerky?

And Elon could be the Hurdy Gurdy Man? I don't know, kinda loosely fits. Then we just need a name for the hardcore Elon fans. A loving name.. cause they're cute. Seriously, man, no disrespect intended. I started out that way.

YouTube
/watch?v=athGt7zEgrQ

 

[sleepydoc]

Already explained. Let me remind you with an example we discussed earlier.

If I was the programmer I would slow down at clear green traffic lights when no one is ahead of me to ensure no one was running the red light in the cross direction. You would not slow down for as the American you believe the green light gives you the right to speed through, and it may very well, but at the cost of being safe. T-bones happen everyday.

For the love of God, can you at least try to read the comments? We’re not talking about trucks or traffic lights or bunnies or anything else. We’re taking about wide open roads.

Maybe your style of driving is randomly slowing down for no reason, but that’s not everyone else’s.

 

[Knightshade]

Your claim is every adaptive cruise system has the current phantom braking problem Tesla has?

You can't be serious.

Given I keep providing sources proving that's true, I'm pretty serious.



Summary of the last I dunno how many pages:


Some rando: THIS MUST BE A TESLA PROBLEM BECAUSE I OWNED BRAND X AND IT NEVER PHANTOM BRAKED!

Me: Here's a bunch of owners of brand X all reporting phantom braking. This is not exclusive to Tesla, it impacts all brands. It's inherent to active cruise control.

Some other rando: BUT I OWNED BRAND Y AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM!

Me: Here's a bunch of owners of brand Y all reporting phantom braking. This is not exclusive to Tesla, it impacts all brands. It's inherent to active cruise control.


rinse and repeat with different brands.

Or, in the case of at least 2 posters here- just repeat the same brands and claim you either can't be bothered to read all the links proving you are wrong or in the most recent case claim all those Brand X owners are talking about AEB and not cruise control, despite them all LITERALLY SAYING they are talking about cruise control.

It seems to me you are just trolling though

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Gilliland]

It's not confusion. It's deliberately ignoring holes in your own argument since it doesn't advance the deification of Tesla.

Good point. I'm starting to feel like I'm in a Monty Python sketch.

"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I've told you once."

 

[sleepydoc]

I have driven 8000 miles in 2 months. I used non beta FSD autopilot for about 80% of my driving. I think I’ve had a hard phantom braking incident less than 5 times total. Yes it will slow down ~5mph when it unsure of a big semi, or of a car merging, but people do that too. It’s not sever enough to startle you if you’re paying attention and your foots on the gas to correct it. I barely drive my car and I use it on Bay Area freeways, and windy mountain freeways hey 17) going 60-80.

This whole thing is blown out of proportion.

Quotes like this are puzzling to me. I drove 150 miles over 3 hours a few weeks ago and experienced phantom braking to some degree about every 15-20 minutes. I've seen plenty of people with experiences like mine, and other with experiences like yours and have no idea why there's such a wide range. I could say that the people with no problems are just fanboys that are oblivious to the problems but I don't think that's true. Nor is it true that people with problems are just hyper-sensitive Tesla Haters. I think there probably is some variation in sensitivity but likely much more variation in the performance between cars which is perplexing and potentially a big problem for Tesla since it means they can't get their software to consistently perform across their fleet.

I think some people are under the false impression that Tesla has not acknowledged phantom braking, or are somehow not aware it's happening.

There seem to be quite a few people in this forum in that category! If Tesla knows it's a problem, why don't they?

Tesla is doing things differently than other car manufacturers. Their approach is totally unique, using neural nets and deep learning with surround cameras that can see in all directions around the car. Most every other manufacturer uses basic radar, or lidar, or a combination of a camera or two plus those other sensors for their TACC.

We bought into the technology with Tesla, with the knowledge that Tesla is on the cutting edge and trying new things. So be patient and work with the company to help them reduce it. If you wanted a "dumb cruise control" system, or basic TACC that most other manufacturers have, I recommend buying one of those cars and waiting until you read that Tesla has solved the problems that are bothering you.

I'm ok with different and ok with Tesla trying new things, but I can't understand rolling out a new technology before it's at least reasonably on par with the old.

You're right, but I think a lot of us have a foot in both camps. We want to see Tesla succeed, and we want to be along for the ride. But we don't want to give up the more basic capabilities that we have had in more mainstream models. If these two were mutually exclusive, I could see it, but they are not. It would be easy for Tesla to give us basic "dumb" cruise control while they are perfecting their more advanced version of it.

And even when TACC is perfect, there will be times when basic cruise control will be preferred by some drivers. There are driving situations where even a perfectly implemented TACC is not as useful as "dumb" cruise control.

Well said.

 

[Raurele]

Quotes like this are puzzling to me. I drove 150 miles over 3 hours a few weeks ago and experienced phantom braking to some degree about every 15-20 minutes. I've seen plenty of people with experiences like mine, and other with experiences like yours and have no idea why there's such a wide range. I could say that the people with no problems are just fanboys that are oblivious to the problems but I don't think that's true. Nor is it true that people with problems are just hyper-sensitive Tesla Haters. I think there probably is some variation in sensitivity but likely much more variation in the performance between cars which is perplexing and potentially a big problem for Tesla since it means they can't get their software to consistently perform across their fleet.

There seem to be quite a few people in this forum in that category! If Tesla knows it's a problem, why don't they?

I'm ok with different and ok with Tesla trying new things, but I can't understand rolling out a new technology before it's at least reasonably on par with the old.

Well said.

Have you driven many other cars that have adaptive cruise control or lane keeping assist? I have with Kia, GM, and Ford. Kia was the second best to Tesla in my opinion, but if you have, the 5-10mph slowdowns aren't even noticeable, and quite often, they are done at the same times I would do them. when I see a semi coming close to my lane on a narrow 2lane road, or a car that might possibly merge into my lane but hasn't shown any visible signs of it yet on the freeway, I am sure to have my foot on the pedal, and hands ready to take over if needed. As you should with any cruise control... They are all a work in progress, but Tesla does it best. I'm not a fanboy, I just enjoy using whatever technology is at my disposal to its max. they all have boundaries...

My BIGGEST gripe is flashing yellow lights on freeways or highways, where it does slow down way too much, or it treats them as a stoplight and I have to use the stalk or gas to tell it to ignore it. I'm sure those brake lights bother those behind me. but since you cant turn that feature off while driving, and I go back and forth between city and freeway a lot, I just deal with it and keep aware.

 

[COS Blue]

Yet another mazda owner said:
Switching the cruise to operate as a traditional cruise control is the first thing I do after starting the car

Oh man, I sure wish I could do that!

 

[COS Blue]

Mazda themselves said:
Incorrect programming of the SBS control software may cause the vehicle to falsely detect an obstacle in front of the vehicle while driving. In certain cases, the SBS control software may automatically apply the vehicle brakes to prevent or reduce damage from a collision, even though no collision is imminent. If the SBS automatic emergency braking system unexpectedly activates while driving, the risk of a rear-end crash from a following vehicle may increase.

This cracks me up. When phantom braking happens on a Mazda, Mazda issues a recall! And warns that "the risk of a rear-end crash from a following vehicle may increase." And yet I guess PB in a Tesla is just fine because it happens to everyone, like Mazda. Who acknowledges that when it happens it's dangerous and worthy of a recall.

Statement On Recall Of Certain 2019-2020 My Mazda3 Vehicles

Mazda North American Operations has filed a Part 573 defect notification with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) for a safety defect, which exists in certain 2019 and 2020 Model Year Mazda3 vehicles.

news.mazdausa.com

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Given I keep providing sources proving that's true, I'm pretty serious.

The problem with this entire thread is people keep mixing entirely separate things together.

The sources you posted were largely for recalls of AEB systems, and not adaptive cruise control systems. Those are very different system, and despite knowing this you still posted those links to try to push your view.

Other people are posting phantom braking of FSD Beta despite knowing that has absolutely nothing to do with phantom braking with TACC/AP while on the freeway. Those of us with FSD Beta have to be really careful about our participation in Phantom braking threads so we provide invalid data, and with FSD Beta V11 we probably shouldn't participate at all as our experiences will be of a different system.

Even without those two things we have to understand that there is a lot of subjective elements to it. Certain areas, and certain driving styles play a large role. In fact to such a degree that I can be reasonably confident that there will be a correlation between where a person is at, and what issues they're having.

There are two fundamental problems with Tesla ownership.

The first is the inability to report bugs/issues and get them fixed. This is especially true with maps/navigation issue which causes a lot of the phantom braking while on TACC/AP (with Tesla Vision).

The second is the sheer level of inconsistency. Having a car in front of you will change whether it phantom brakes or not, and the lighting during the day changes things. I know going from Seattle to Portland will generally have worse PB than Portland to Seattle because I've done it so many times that I've started to notice it.

 

[drtimhill]

My BIGGEST gripe is flashing yellow lights on freeways or highways, where it does slow down way too much, or it treats them as a stoplight and I have to use the stalk or gas to tell it to ignore it.

There has been a lot of work done in FSD beta to handle this (for obvious reasons), so that should get addressed as the beta NN stack starts to trickle down to AP/TACC as well.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

This cracks me up. When phantom braking happens on a Mazda, Mazda issues a recall! And warns that "the risk of a rear-end crash from a following vehicle may increase." And yet I guess PB in a Tesla is just fine because it happens to everyone, like Mazda. Who acknowledges that when it happens it's dangerous and worthy of a recall.

Statement On Recall Of Certain 2019-2020 My Mazda3 Vehicles

Mazda North American Operations has filed a Part 573 defect notification with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) for a safety defect, which exists in certain 2019 and 2020 Model Year Mazda3 vehicles.

news.mazdausa.com

They're two entirely different things.

AEB braking is severe and warrants a recall due to safety concerns. I would also expect to see a lot of related AEB recalls because most manufactures won't have their own AEB system, and will get it from a supplier. So the supplier has to inform all the vehicle manufactures that use it. AEB activation can also occur while adaptive cruise control isn't being used so its pretty scary.

PB while on adaptive cruise control is typically only has mild to moderate braking, and is an annoyance. It mostly leads to unhappiness with a vehicle versus an actual safety hazard.

I'm not aware of any company having anywhere close the PB braking issue that Tesla does with Tesla Vision. The closest is the early days of Phantom braking where the systems could get confused during a turn and would slow for a car next to them. They weren't all that good.

If this was a local community we could do a bet on which adaptive cruise control vehicle would have the most phantom braking. It probably wouldn't be much of a bet though as even the most optimist Tesla fan would place their bets on the Tesla Vision car.

The score would be the number of measurable events and their severity. The drivers would be told not to intervene unless absolutely necessary for safety. In fact we'd probably want to have a follower car to make sure the test was safe. The length of the journey would likely be around 1K miles to get a good idea.

 

[Raurele]

There has been a lot of work done in FSD beta to handle this (for obvious reasons), so that should get addressed as the beta NN stack starts to trickle down to AP/TACC as well.

I’m at a 99 score and 3900 miles since opting in 30 days ago... hopefully soon if the regulators stop ****ing with Tesla about every little thing.

 

[COS Blue]

They're two entirely different things.

AEB braking is severe and warrants a recall due to safety concerns.
...
PB while on adaptive cruise control is typically only has mild to moderate braking, and is an annoyance. It mostly leads to unhappiness with a vehicle versus an actual safety hazard.

When you say "they" are two entirely different things, you assume what I mean when I talk about PB. Yes, I agree that there are different types of different severity. My best example of PB that scared me is when I was driving 78mph on I-25 and the car slammed on the brakes because of a shadow of a bridge. Yes, I was using TACC, and yes, it slammed on the brakes. I will preemptively request that nobody tell me that I'm a bad judge of what constitutes slamming on the brakes, or that some guy once measured what he thought was PB and it was only 0.2g so therefore I must be wrong. I've heard both those claims many times on this thread and they do not apply.

The problem with this entire thread is people keep mixing entirely separate things together.

You are probably right about this. I find it annoying when the car decels because it thinks the speed limit goes down, but I haven't freaked out about that or called it PB. I find it annoying when the car brakes for cross-traffic after the car has already cleared my path, and while I have complained about that, I don't consider that PB (there really was a car, it just did a bad job of deciding whether it needed to brake, and it decided too late anyway).

There are all sorts of different ways that the Tesla will hit the brakes when it shouldn't. They are all annoying. Some of them are dangerous.

My opinion is that Tesla should improve all cases where the car brakes unnecessarily. Regardless of what happens in a Mazda, or whatever. I think a lot of people feel that way.

 

[Knightshade]

The problem with this entire thread is people keep mixing entirely separate things together.

The sources you posted were largely for recalls of AEB systems, and not adaptive cruise control systems.

I mean, on the last one I literally highlighted them specifically stating they were talking about adaptive cruise each time

Yet a few people here keep insisting the actual drivers of those cars meant something else despite what they actually said.

Those are very different system, and despite knowing this you still posted those links to try to push your view.

No, I posted the links because they were literally talking about the same system

Adaptive cruise control.

I guess we have to add you to the list of tl;dr folks who keep not actually reading provided sources and yet think they should then post about what they imagine they said.

This cracks me up. When phantom braking happens on a Mazda, Mazda issues a recall!

No, when defective AEB occurs they issue one.

So did Tesla for the 12 hours it took them to fix it with an OTA update.


Mazda does not appear to have fixed the regular active cruise braking though, as cited in multiple links a few posts ago nobody seems to have bothered to read



But here- since apparently several people in the thread find actual reading too hard maybe a picture with colored circles will work for them

 

[TechNerd]

I thought I was going crazy - I experience this frequently. If the car knows to keep me 5MPH above the speed limit in autopilot, I would think it could reduce the emphasis on oncoming traffic.

I agree an easy way to enable “stupid cruise” would be nice.

 

[Gilliland]

My best example of PB that scared me is when I was driving 78mph on I-25 and the car slammed on the brakes because of a shadow of a bridge. Yes, I was using TACC, and yes, it slammed on the brakes. I will preemptively request that nobody tell me that I'm a bad judge of what constitutes slamming on the brakes, or that some guy once measured what he thought was PB and it was only 0.2g so therefore I must be wrong. I've heard both those claims many times on this thread and they do not apply.

It is important to note that even though you had TACC on, this was probably not a TACC event. The AEB/CA system will slam on the brakes if it thinks a collision is imminent regardless of whether TACC is on or not. I think you realize this, but others may interpret your words to think that this was caused by TACC. Another of your points is that it needs to be fixed no matter what the cause is, and I agree with that. But when we don't differentiate, it leads to pointless arguments.

I haven't (yet) experienced this kind of extreme braking, and I really hope I never do.