Phantom Braking

[AndreP]

"unnamed sources" especially from china, aren't likely to be reliable.

To my knowledge on the rare occasions anyone at Tesla has used SAE levels to discuss things publicly they've never mentioned 3 at all... just 2 (current system) and 4/5 for future plans.

And the omission would be equally relevant for any level above 2.

I can't really see any reason Tesla would release anything L3. On a practical level it's almost indistinguishable from L2 to the user (they still have to be present in the drivers seat, and ready to take over when asked- there's just some theoretical delay in takeover time available to them- with no evidence what the "safe" time limit is).

So it'd be almost entirely downside on the liability/bad PR front, with little benefit so long as nobody else is seriously offering L3 either (and Hondas is not a serious offering, limited to 100 total cars, at low speed, and working poorly even then).

Taking responsibility for the driving task is such a huge hurdle, it's hard to imagine anything beyond L3 rolling out without being very restricted like the programs in limited cities run by Waymo, Cruise, etc. L3 might be a necessary intermediary step if only as a way for manufacturers to dip their toes into this murky water on a broader scale along the path to L4+. Tesla's approach to developing this software is incremental steps, the path to deploying a consumer L4+ vehicle could be the same with little pieces added and digested thoroughly then refined before adding more.

But don't want to pull this further off topic

 

[Bouba]

Taking responsibility for the driving task is such a huge hurdle, it's hard to imagine anything beyond L3 rolling out without being very restricted like the programs in limited cities run by Waymo, Cruise, etc. L3 might be a necessary intermediary step if only as a way for manufacturers to dip their toes into this murky water on a broader scale along the path to L4+. Tesla's approach to developing this software is incremental steps, the path to deploying a consumer L4+ vehicle could be the same with little pieces added and digested thoroughly then refined before adding more.

But don't want to pull this further off topic

I think that if the present FSD keeps getting incremental improvements then we will reach L3 without any fanfare or leaps in technology...and possibly in a reasonable time frame

 

[drtimhill]

I just want them to fix the fricking unintended slowdowns. No more excuses or people saying my experience is fine and would be no better in other cars. In our Tesla only, It's a pain In the a&& and really sours the driving experience so much wife hates using cruise control at this point. They have to know it sucks. Just fix it like all my other cars that have radar cruise or throw in the towel and give me the option for another Beta function -> stupid cruise that just controls speed, doesn't slow ever. That would be a more useful beta than say the Beta high beams that stink or beta auto wipers that are terrible.

If that much of the car stinks, why dont you sell it and buy something else? Right now you can get amazing $$ for any Tesla. So you wont be out of pocket much (if at all).

As others (and I) have noted here:
-- They ARE fixing it, its called FSD beta. What you are really saying is "I want it fixed NOW!!".
-- Some (many) of the PB events may in fact be legitimate. Just because the driver doesnt see a possible danger doesnt mean there isnt one.
-- Some people are pushing the edge of where TACC/AP can be used safely and blaming the car.
-- Many people do NOT see these events at all (possibly because they are not pushing the limits, but that is unknown).
-- Tesla have to balance false positives with false negatives .. you are arguing that they should adjust the system so that the car sometimes crashes when it could have prevented a crash so that your wife is more comfortable. Not sure that is necessarily a good trade-off.
-- Convenience and comfort aside, just how many crashes HAVE been caused by FB? I've not seen ANY reports here, and while this is not necessarily a representative group, I think any crash caused by TACC/AP would turn up pretty fast somewhere.

No, I'm not making excuses or being a fanboy or apologist for Tesla, it's just less clear-cut the you seem to think.

 

[Xdama]

If that much of the car stinks, why dont you sell it and buy something else? Right now you can get amazing $$ for any Tesla. So you wont be out of pocket much (if at all).

As others (and I) have noted here:
-- They ARE fixing it, its called FSD beta. What you are really saying is "I want it fixed NOW!!".
-- Some (many) of the PB events may in fact be legitimate. Just because the driver doesnt see a possible danger doesnt mean there isnt one.
-- Some people are pushing the edge of where TACC/AP can be used safely and blaming the car.
-- Many people do NOT see these events at all (possibly because they are not pushing the limits, but that is unknown).
-- Tesla have to balance false positives with false negatives .. you are arguing that they should adjust the system so that the car sometimes crashes when it could have prevented a crash so that your wife is more comfortable. Not sure that is necessarily a good trade-off.
-- Convenience and comfort aside, just how many crashes HAVE been caused by FB? I've not seen ANY reports here, and while this is not necessarily a representative group, I think any crash caused by TACC/AP would turn up pretty fast somewhere.

No, I'm not making excuses or being a fanboy or apologist for Tesla, it's just less clear-cut the you seem to think.

Could be worse, come live in the UK or EU, another few years top speed in cars will be governed to the speed limit of wherever you are. No wandering over it by a couple of miles an hr, no quick squirt to get out of danger …..big brother will dictate and watch your every move
EU ruling means speed limiters will be mandatory in the UK by 2022 | RAC Drive

 

[Gilliland]

Because it's not a flaw, it's inherent to the type of system

Which is why every car maker has the same types of MIGHT BRAKE WHEN IT SHOULD NOT warnings in their manuals.

This is not something exclusive to Tesla. As repeatedly proven with source after source that apparently nobody can be bothered to read so they keep repeating the nonsense claims it's some Tesla flaw.

It is almost certainly true that every automaker has this warning and occasionally exhibits this behavior. But the only car with TACC that has ever behaved this way for me is my MYLR. I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I am confident that you will get the same anecdotal evidence from other drivers. TACC is still relatively new, so many drivers probably have no experience with it in other cars. I can only compare the Tesla to my Mazda. You will have to ask others for comparisons with other brands. In the 4 years that I drove my CX-5, I never once encountered this behavior. Not even once.

I know you can find reports of this happening in non-Tesla cars. That is to be expected. But you won't find pervasive reporting of this behavior in other brands. In non-Tesla cars it is rare. Probably less than 5% of drivers (and I'm being generous here) ever experience it, maybe even less than 1%. But nearly all Tesla drivers experience it.

It is a Tesla flaw, and it needs to be fixed.

 

[Knightshade]

It is almost certainly true that every automaker has this warning and occasionally exhibits this behavior. But the only car with TACC that has ever behaved this way for me is my MYLR. I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I am confident that you will get the same anecdotal evidence from other drivers.

Sure.

But I've already cited, including directly to you, anecdotal evidence of people with every other brand of car having the same issue

Including brands you personally didn't have it with.


It's why generalizing anecdotal evidence is so poorly thought of in actual data analysis. It's not only not useful, it presents very inaccurate big pictures.

SURELY IF IT HAPPENS TO ME IT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE is no more valid a general observation than SURELY IF IT NEVER HAPPENED TO ME IT NEVER HAPPENS TO ANYONE.

TACC is still relatively new, so many drivers probably have no experience with it in other cars. I can only compare the Tesla to my Mazda. You will have to ask others for comparisons with other brands. In the 4 years that I drove my CX-5, I never once encountered this behavior. Not even once.

And yet last time you raised this point I cited a bunch of examples of Mazda driving having exactly this problem with their cars.

here's more

https://www.reddit.com/r/MazdaCX30/comments/mhli2y

my car very sharply and dangerously reduced its speed to increase its distance from that car! The car that was behind me was also shocked because of the sudden brake.

it has caused me to almost get rear ended too because it’s way to aggressive

Absolutely experienced the same thing.

My experience exactly. I disabled it in mine.

Same issues on my 2020 cx5

On top of all the anecdotal stories cited there was also this:

Statement On Recall Of Certain 2019-2020 My Mazda3 Vehicles

Mazda North American Operations has filed a Part 573 defect notification with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) for a safety defect, which exists in certain 2019 and 2020 Model Year Mazda3 vehicles.

news.mazdausa.com

Incorrect programming of the SBS control software may cause the vehicle to falsely detect an obstacle in front of the vehicle while driving. In certain cases, the SBS control software may automatically apply the vehicle brakes to prevent or reduce damage from a collision, even though no collision is imminent. If the SBS automatic emergency braking system unexpectedly activates while driving, the risk of a rear-end crash from a following vehicle may increase.

But you won't find pervasive reporting of this behavior in other brands. In non-Tesla cars it is rare. Probably less than 5% of drivers (and I'm being generous here) ever experience it, maybe even less than 1%. But nearly all Tesla drivers experience it.

Where did you get your PhD in making up numbers out of thin air, exactly?

As pointed out to you, some other brands have had significantly more complaints in the NHTSA database on these types of issues.

So your repeatedly debunked claim this is just SUPER RARE for everyone but Tesla remains nonsense unsupported by anything beyond personal anecdotes.

 

[drtimhill]

Could be worse, come live in the UK or EU, another few years top speed in cars will be governed to the speed limit of wherever you are. No wandering over it by a couple of miles an hr, no quick squirt to get out of danger …..big brother will dictate and watch your every move
EU ruling means speed limiters will be mandatory in the UK by 2022 | RAC Drive

Yeah I saw that coming years ago. Just wait until the traffic get absurd. And I can't WAIT to watch a car chase where the police and the offender are both driving exactly at the speed limit

 

[enemji]

It’s not *my* style of driving - it’s the style of every other car with adaptive cruise.

Please explain how the examples I and others gave above are ‘appropriate.’ What ‘style’ of driving randomly brakes and then accelerated for no reason? (And no, ‘the computer must have a reason if it slowed down’ isn’t an answer. Of course it had a reason: it’s a flawed algorithm.


You can deny all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that the programming is flawed.

Already explained. Let me remind you with an example we discussed earlier.

If I was the programmer I would slow down at clear green traffic lights when no one is ahead of me to ensure no one was running the red light in the cross direction. You would not slow down for as the American you believe the green light gives you the right to speed through, and it may very well, but at the cost of being safe. T-bones happen everyday.

 

[AndreP]

I think that if the present FSD keeps getting incremental improvements then we will reach L3 without any fanfare or leaps in technology...and possibly in a reasonable time frame

I think Tesla could roll out something like traffic jam pilot right now if they put the energy into it.

Generalized L3 would be a much tougher nut to crack in terms of providing adequate take-over warning in a dynamic city setting and not on mapped highways at certain speeds like Mercedes is pushing for in Germany. Right now FSD will go for everything and expect you to take over at the last second, it would be barreling through situations and exposing Tesla to huge liability if people were allowed to check out of the driving task. And right now I think it has zero awareness of situations it can't handle much less the ability to provide warning prior to encountering them.

FSD will come out of Beta as a L2 ADAS in my opinion, exactly as they described to the California DMV. When Elon talks about "achieving Full-self Driving" by the end of this year, I think that's what he's referring to.

 

[tm3dlr]

I think that if the present FSD keeps getting incremental improvements then we will reach L3 without any fanfare or leaps in technology...and possibly in a reasonable time frame

FSD beta 10.10 to L3 is a bigger leap than AP to FSD Beta IMO.

 

[Gilliland]

Sure.

But I've already cited, including directly to you, anecdotal evidence of people with every other brand of car having the same issue

And yet last time you raised this point I cited a bunch of examples of Mazda driving having exactly this problem with their cars.

As pointed out to you, some other brands have had significantly more complaints in the NHTSA database on these types of issues.

So your repeatedly debunked claim this is just SUPER RARE for everyone but Tesla remains nonsense unsupported by anything beyond personal anecdotes.

I will try to ignore your hysterics and just focus on the issues. Mazda's recall did not affect my car. Nonetheless, it was not a recall based on TACC, it was based on their collision avoidance system. We've talked about this distinction before, but you are still confusing the two.

I can't really blame you for that because many others do so as well, including the anecdotal Mazda examples that you cited, and also including far too much of the Tesla discussion in this forum.

Errors in the collision avoidance system can be very dangerous. Mazda was right to acknowledge and correct this problem. But this has nothing to do with TACC. Some Tesla owners have also reported severe braking caused by the Tesla collision avoidance system. I don't know whether or not Tesla has fixed this, but I certainly hope they take it as seriously as Mazda did. I have not had this experience in either car.

Minor speed variations in TACC are not dangerous. They are an annoyance. They happen to nearly every Tesla owner. They never once happened to me in my Mazda. I have never heard of them happening to any other Mazda owner, and you have shown no examples to the contrary. I can't comment on other brands because I don't have the experience and I haven't done the research.

I can see why people mix these up. But we have to keep them separate if we are to have a meaningful discussion. Calling it "the same issue" does not make it true, and neither does the fact that many others have also confused the two.

When your car (of any brand) "slams on the brakes", that is almost certainly due to the collision avoidance system, sometimes called automatic braking. It can and will occur regardless of whether cruise control is on or off.

When your car fails to hold a consistent speed even when there is no slower traffic ahead of you, that is an error in cruise control. This occurs only when TACC is engaged, or when TACC is in use as part of autopilot or FSD.

Unfortunately, many here, perhaps most here, use the term "phantom braking" to refer to both of these situations. I think we would be much better off if we could save the term "phantom braking" for the severe errors in collision avoidance, and find another term to describe the (relatively) minor speed variations that occur in Tesla's Traffic Aware Cruise Control.

 

[Knightshade]

I will try to ignore your hysterics

Repeatedly calling you out for dishonest argument is "hysterics?"

and just focus on the issues.

Well THAT would be a welcome change

Mazda's recall did not affect my car. Nonetheless, it was not a recall based on TACC, it was based on their collision avoidance system. We've talked about this distinction before, but you are still confusing the two.

I'm really not.

In addition to the recall I also cited numerous folks complaining about the Mazda equivalent of TACC. Even an MX-5 owner.

But ultimately nobody cares about the name of the system that SLAMMED ON THE BRAKES without cause.

Minor speed variations in TACC are not dangerous. They are an annoyance. They happen to nearly every Tesla owner. They never once happened to me in my Mazda. I have never heard of them happening to any other Mazda owner, and you have shown no examples to the contrary.

This is flat out false- I not only showed you examples, I did so like ten minutes ago

Including Mazda owners stating they no longer even use it on highways because of this problem.


If you can't argue honestly- and it's apparent you can't- why bother to argue?

 

[tm3dlr]

Repeatedly calling you out for dishonest argument is "hysterics?"




Well THAT would be a welcome change



I'm really not.

In addition to the recall I also cited numerous folks complaining about the Mazda equivalent of TACC. Even an MX-5 owner.

But ultimately nobody cares about the name of the system that SLAMMED ON THE BRAKES without cause.




This is flat out false- I not only showed you examples, I did so like ten minutes ago

Including Mazda owners stating they no longer even use it on highways because of this problem.


If you can't argue honestly- and it's apparent you can't- why bother to argue?

Not going to read your guys pissing match. Your argument is Tesla's current phantom braking problem isn't a concern because X manufacturer also has it? If so nah man just nah. Tesla has a serious problem right now and it needs to be acknowledged by Tesla

 

[hatch]

Unfortunately, many here, perhaps most here, use the term "phantom braking" to refer to both of these situations. I think we would be much better off if we could save the term "phantom braking" for the severe errors in collision avoidance, and find another term to describe the (relatively) minor speed variations that occur in Tesla's Traffic Aware Cruise Control.

Herky-Jerky?

 

[Knightshade]

Not going to read your guys pissing match. Your argument is Tesla's current phantom braking problem isn't a concern because X manufacturer also has it? If so nah man just nah. Tesla has a serious problem right now and it needs to be acknowledged by Tesla

Ah, we have another "I'm not gonna bother to read anything, but respond anyway" contibutor!

Guess what? You'll get the same fact-based response as the stuff you didn't read.


If everyone with an adaptive cruise system has the same "problem" then on what do you base the idea "tesla" has a serious problem?

It's not a "problem" it's an inherent limitation of the system

it's designed to detect if there's something it needs to slow down not to hit.

Sometimes it detects such a thing when there isn't one.

Not just Teslas system- but EVERYONES system.

The owners manuals even call this out, for every brand

Because all of them are set up to prefer "slowing down without reason" to "hitting something to avoid slowing down"

 

[Gilliland]

Repeatedly calling you out for dishonest argument is "hysterics?"

This is flat out false- I not only showed you examples, I did so like ten minutes ago

Including Mazda owners stating they no longer even use it on highways because of this problem.

Yes. Because of this automatic braking collision avoidance system problem. The one that Mazda acknowledged and fixed. Just because some owner erroneously attributed it to TACC does not change the actual nature of the problem. This shouldn't be that hard to understand - unless you simply don't want to understand it.

I will repeat the most important point that I made earlier: We have to be able to differentiate between automatic braking / collision avoidance and traffic aware cruise control if we are to have a meaningful discussion. Calling it "the same issue" does not make it true, and neither does the fact that many others have also confused the two (including both Mazda and Tesla owners, and perhaps many others).

Anyway, I'm done. I don't know if you are deliberately ignoring my points, or if you really don't understand them. But I'm not going to argue against the red herrings that you keep throwing in. I chose my words very carefully, but I can't force you to understand them. I can see that others here understand my writing, so it seems that I have been reasonably clear. That's all I can hope for.

 

[Raurele]

I have experienced several episodes of phantom braking. As well, in general, there is way too much hard braking. There is no way that FSD beta would obtain the safety scores that drivers needed to get the FSD software download. I rarely use the friction brakes. I can usually glide to a stop with maybe slight tweaking of thhe accelerator pedal. I plan to never need brake pads. No way current FSD could do this.

I have driven 8000 miles in 2 months. I used non beta FSD autopilot for about 80% of my driving. I think I’ve had a hard phantom braking incident less than 5 times total. Yes it will slow down ~5mph when it unsure of a big semi, or of a car merging, but people do that too. It’s not sever enough to startle you if you’re paying attention and your foots on the gas to correct it. I barely drive my car and I use it on Bay Area freeways, and windy mountain freeways hey 17) going 60-80.

This whole thing is blown out of proportion.

 

[Knightshade]

Yes. Because of this automatic braking collision avoidance system problem.

Why lie when anyone can just click the source and see you are lying?

From the link in the very post you are quoting previously while denying it's about cruise control-

How should I manage this Radar Cruise control to avoid this kind of things?

This is probably the 3rd time on this subreddit that I've had to say that I do not use Mazda Radar Cruise Control (MRCC) on busy highways and recommend others likewise. Way more stress than just driving.

Switching the cruise to operate as a traditional cruise control is the first thing I do after starting the car

Same issues on my 2020 cx5, not only that, it uses the brakes to slow down instead if engine compression or transmission, be prepared for premature brake replacement if you use it often. I gave up on using it except on long open highways.

Multiple additional quotes in the thread from folks who clearly are talking the cruise control, not AEB, and having all the problems you claim don't exist on Mazdas because your ONE Mazda didn't personally have them.

This shouldn't be that hard to understand - unless you simply don't want to understand it.

Sounds like some projection going on here

Since all those folks claim turning off active cruise makes the problem go away, it's pretty clear you are the one with an understanding problem.

I don't know if you are deliberately ignoring my points, or if you really don't understand them.

I understand them.

But they are factually wrong, and you've been shown source after source proving it.

While you've provided zero to support your own nonsense claims other than:

Your PERSONAL experience with ONE Mazda.
and
Making up fake %s of users impacted-- then when called out on having no source for those #s you just ignored the point.

I chose my words very carefully

Seems to be making yet another claim not supported by evidence.

Which makes it consistent with the rest of your posts

 

[Gilliland]

Why lie when anyone can just click the source and see you are lying?

Please enjoy having the last word.

 

[Dewg]

I think some people are under the false impression that Tesla has not acknowledged phantom braking, or are somehow not aware it's happening. Tesla is very aware of it, and working on fixing it. A simple google search for "tesla release notes phantom braking" will show that as software updates were released, specific calls outs for reduction in phantom braking were in several updates.

Just keep reporting problems to Tesla - if you're in FSD Beta and you experience any PB, press the little report icon to make sure they see the telemetry from your vehicle. It'll get better as the NN's learn and updates are released.

Tesla is doing things differently than other car manufacturers. Their approach is totally unique, using neural nets and deep learning with surround cameras that can see in all directions around the car. Most every other manufacturer uses basic radar, or lidar, or a combination of a camera or two plus those other sensors for their TACC.

We bought into the technology with Tesla, with the knowledge that Tesla is on the cutting edge and trying new things. So be patient and work with the company to help them reduce it. If you wanted a "dumb cruise control" system, or basic TACC that most other manufacturers have, I recommend buying one of those cars and waiting until you read that Tesla has solved the problems that are bothering you.