Porsche Mission E

[tga]

Why?? What is the big hurry?

There are plenty of people out there who don't get the "charge while you do something else" model. To them, refueling means:

1. Going to a gas or EV charging station.
2. Start refueling.
3. Stand there and wait for the process to complete.
4. Pay and leave.

They don't get that, in an EV, step 3 doesn't require you to stand there and wait. They don't get "charge at home while you sleep," or "charge while you are at a movie," or whatever, until they actually experience it. You've been doing it for so long it's second nature.

For many non-EV owners, they tune out when they hear 30 minutes to charge. For these people, it's easier to develop 10 minute 500kW charging than educate them as to why it isn't really necessary. It's too hard to fight decades of "go to a refueling station" brainwashing...

 

[RogerHScott]

enjoyed my wife too (but not in the car while supercharging!)

Glad you've left yourself some aspect of your Tesla to look forward to!

 

[RogerHScott]

To be fair, this discussion of the "incremental" cost of SuperCharging leaves out the fact that you do have to stop more frequently, and 100% of the time for those additional stops is "incremental" vs. the zero time you'd (not) be stopping in an ICE. Also, not everyone's circumstances allow for leisurely car travel -- sometimes people need to make a long trip as fast as possible.

 

[whitex]

Yes I saw this this morning. What happened to the "starting at 70k" model? Makes much more sense though at these prices.

They just announced the first year production model is sold out, though I couldn't find whether that is the original production volume or the doubled one they also recently announced. If your product demand exceeds your production capacity, it makes sense to sell it for more.

 

[whitex]

Nipping at the heels of the 35k Model 3, no doubt.

At least we can be confident that the anti-Porsche media will surely scrutinize the price points as much as the anti-Tesla crowd.

They never intended to go after the 35K Model 3, that's Audi and VW charter.

 

[bxr140]

To be fair, this discussion of the "incremental" cost of SuperCharging leaves out the fact that you do have to stop more frequently, and 100% of the time for those additional stops is "incremental" vs. the zero time you'd (not) be stopping in an ICE. Also, not everyone's circumstances allow for leisurely car travel -- sometimes people need to make a long trip as fast as possible.

The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. One can be focused on a fast trip and also stop often. In fact, newer Tesla's have the ability to serve quite a bit of the bell curve of trips without necessarily increasing total trip time. Obviously, if one is a 300+ mile iron bladder that stops only as long as it takes to fill up a tank that's beyond EV capability, but that's also like 3 sigma on the curve. If someone wants to drive their EV 1000+ miles in a day, they're going to be waiting on the charge. But that's also way out on the curve.


800v is a solid idea as it can both a) allow the car to charge faster and b) allow the car to charge at a lower amperage. While perhaps not completely necessary in a car right now--for many reasons, not the least of which is the personality that's buying an EV in 2018-2019--its a smart, forward looking concept.

 

[bxr140]

They never intended to go after the 35K Model 3, that's Audi and VW charter.

LOL!

At the risk of having to explain a joke on the internet, it had nothing to do with the M3 and Taycan being competitors or not.

 

[whitex]

And all this excitement about charging at 800 volts, maybe several thousand volts in the near future, makes me wonder. Why?? What is the big hurry? It takes me maybe 20 minutes to charge enough to make it to my destination, and when I get there I just sit and listen to relatives I hardly know tell me stuff I don't believe. I'd almost rather sit in my car and visit with wifey, or read a book, or both. Or your destination is "home" and you want to hurry so you can catch the last of that great TV program your wife recorded, right?

So the Porsche can charge in five minutes, after they drive ten minutes off the freeway and find the charger (I assume they have maps displayed with charger icons on it). And it's full while you're still in the bathroom drying off your hands.

And I would hope they allow home charging, even though it's only 220 volts, 32 amps. Which takes hours, not minutes.

Give me a break. Literally.

Here are some reasons why 800V is better.

1. Faster charging means superchargers can serve more people per hour. Go check out threads on SC lines during travel times. I bet those who have to wait 2 hrs before they plug in would appreciate a 5 minute charge with no wait (all those cars which were taking 20-60min to charge would have been done in 5 minutes and left).
2. Not everyone has all the time in the world. I did a round trip coast to coast trip in a Tesla once. Most of the time it wasn't an issue, but out of the entire trip, probably 4 of them I wasn't too crazy about waiting 40 mintues to charge (and yes, 20 minutes would not give me enough charge) and 2 of them had to wait an hour (needed close to 100% of my 85KWh to make the stretch to the next supercharger).
3. Higher voltage means lower currents, therefore less losses. More efficient charging and driving is an advantage.
4. Faster charging means you can easily charge more often, therefore you don't need to have as large capacity battery - cheaper cars.

So, 800V is beneficial to everyone, but not to the same degree. If you only charge and home (like my wife in over 2 years and 35K miles of driving a Tesla, she's never been to a charger outside of the house) then it makes the least difference (you get a more efficient car, but you can make that up by having a slightly larger capacity battery). If you travel a lot, you benefit more. Of course, if you have all the time in the world and like reading books or visiting wifey while charging, you can make it everywhere in a Leaf too. Between ChaDeMo, 240V and 120V charging, the Leaf will take you anywhere, provided you're willing to spend the time charging.

 

[iCharge]

.....
. Between ChaDeMo, 240V and 120V charging, the Leaf will take you anywhere, provided you're willing to spend the time charging.

This statement can be be applied to ANY electric car, even the Mitsubishi i-MiEV

 

[whitex]

This statement can be be applied to ANY electric car, even the Mitsubishi i-MiEV

Exactly. I was just using Leaf as an mainstream EV example.

 

[VT_EE]

Here are some reasons why 800V is better.

1. Faster charging means superchargers can serve more people per hour. Go check out threads on SC lines during travel times. I bet those who have to wait 2 hrs before they plug in would appreciate a 5 minute charge with no wait (all those cars which were taking 20-60min to charge would have been done in 5 minutes and left).
2. Not everyone has all the time in the world. I did a round trip coast to coast trip in a Tesla once. Most of the time it wasn't an issue, but out of the entire trip, probably 4 of them I wasn't too crazy about waiting 40 mintues to charge (and yes, 20 minutes would not give me enough charge) and 2 of them had to wait an hour (needed close to 100% of my 85KWh to make the stretch to the next supercharger).
3. Higher voltage means lower currents, therefore less losses. More efficient charging and driving is an advantage.
4. Faster charging means you can easily charge more often, therefore you don't need to have as large capacity battery - cheaper cars.

So, 800V is beneficial to everyone, but not to the same degree. If you only charge and home (like my wife in over 2 years and 35K miles of driving a Tesla, she's never been to a charger outside of the house) then it makes the least difference (you get a more efficient car, but you can make that up by having a slightly larger capacity battery). If you travel a lot, you benefit more. Of course, if you have all the time in the world and like reading books or visiting wifey while charging, you can make it everywhere in a Leaf too. Between ChaDeMo, 240V and 120V charging, the Leaf will take you anywhere, provided you're willing to spend the time charging.

I understand that higher voltage means lower current, but that should have minimal impact on how fast you can charge the actual battery cell. The higher charge voltage just enables you to squirt more electrons into the pack without needing fancy cable cooling. Cell charge rate is more dependent on chemistry especially since each cell (in an 800V pack) probably operates at the same voltage as those in the 400V packs. I’m not convinced the Porsche will actually charge at the rate they are claiming without some serious degradation.

 

[wdolson]

Actual charging rate is determined by the total power, doubling the voltage and halving the current doesn't really make any difference in rate. The power coming from the DC charger needs to be distributed across all the cells and each cell can only take so much current at a time. To charge faster requires either more cells or cells that can take a higher current. Higher current cells usually have lower total capacity than lower current cells. If the Taycan has higher current cells, it probably has less capacity.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Actual charging rate is determined by the total power, doubling the voltage and halving the current doesn't really make any difference in rate. The power coming from the DC charger needs to be distributed across all the cells and each cell can only take so much current at a time. To charge faster requires either more cells or cells that can take a higher current. Higher current cells usually have lower total capacity than lower current cells. If the Taycan has higher current cells, it probably has less capacity.

What higher voltage enables is same cabling provided they already shield to more than 1KV isolation. Right now tesla is limited by supercharger. However shortly it will be limited by the cables thickness from charger port to the battery. With 800V they can essentially use the same thickness wire and save money on the copper.

More voltage is mostly a positive thing I think tesla will go to in the future. Maybe even in their roadster.

 

[jbcarioca]

When thinking of Porsche vs Tesla for buyer motivation, given the Porsche idea that many reservations come from existing Tesla owners, there are a few points:
1. Comparing Tesla vs Porsche for warranty service, parts availability and collision repair Porsche wins in many countries. Having owned multiple versions of both brands, Porsche is far better on these measures, despite some 'enthusiastic pricing' by Porsche dealers, they find parts and do service rapidly. many people who have ever faced crash repair in both find Porsche parts arrive fast and accurately. Tesla's arrive slowly, often incorrectly labeled, damaged or both.
2. Both brands are highly prized and have high owner loyalty, but consistency favors Porsche, with decades of high loyalty.
3. The design philosophies make Porsche quite appealing to many enthusiasts. Tesla wins with OTA updates and people who love the most advanced computer technology, and Porsche wins with pure car enthusiasts, especially older than Millennials. Thus, taking nothing from Tesla, owners with multiple sporting vehicles are excellent candidates for Porsche, especially since many already own them.
4. Just from Porsche Club mutterings, I suspect they are getting reservations from existing owners of both Porsche and Tesla, who are quite prepared to continue to own both.

FWIW, quite a few years back I led a project for an aircraft manufacturer to evaluate Porsche owners as candidates to buy small aircraft. >50% of all new US Porsche owners are aircraft pilots. Coincidentally at that time >70% of new Porsche buyers had other luxury vehicles also. That was before Tesla. All that history strongly suggests that Porsche will not really make conquest sales but will expand the BEV market, probably maintaining high BEV loyalty for both.

There is much other data that suggests the points I listed above. That said, some will cite Panamera, Cayenne and Macan as examples of Porsche market expansion. That is partly true, but Mission E will change the story. Porsche hybrids thus far, if my data is correct, tend to be almost all people who were already Porsche buyers anyway.

NET: the more the merrier, but Tesla MUST raise the game of sales treatment and after-sale treatment. Even though Jaguar, Porsche et al may not be very direct competitors there will soon be quite direct comparisons about sales and service.

Addendum: If these points are valid for the USA, which has pretty poor auto services overall, just wait for mass sales in Germany, China, Korea and Japan. Even Norway has some very bad experiences. Disaster beckons if the sad North America/Norwegian stories are repeated in those four countries. Make no mistake, this is an existential crisis equivalent to those of Model X introduction and Model 3 production. Paraphrasing an offensive quotation 'Hell hath no fury like a Tesla lover scorned".

 

[NewTMSMan]

There are plenty of people out there who don't get the "charge while you do something else" model. To them, refueling means:

1. Going to a gas or EV charging station.
2. Start refueling.
3. Stand there and wait for the process to complete.
4. Pay and leave.

They don't get that, in an EV, step 3 doesn't require you to stand there and wait. They don't get "charge at home while you sleep," or "charge while you are at a movie," or whatever, until they actually experience it. You've been doing it for so long it's second nature.

For many non-EV owners, they tune out when they hear 30 minutes to charge. For these people, it's easier to develop 10 minute 500kW charging than educate them as to why it isn't really necessary. It's too hard to fight decades of "go to a refueling station" brainwashing...

I always explain charging to non-EV drivers in 2 ways; first I tell them you treat it like your phone and charge it whenever you can, so I leave my garage every day with a full charge (80% to be more accurate, but you get the point). You don't drive it down to 0% and then recharge until full, it's a different process. Second is long trips, where I explain that the stops roughly every 2 1/2 hours are for 20-30 minutes or so, which is perfect to use the bathroom and get something to eat. Actually makes long distance travel easier than the marathon driving sessions I used to do and I arrive from long drives feeling good (autopilot helps a lot with that as well).

I actually think making charging faster on longer trips would not change or improve long distance travel, and not many homes could support faster charging (most have trouble installing a 100A circuit with their current service). Faster home charging would be somewhat useful, but not practical, and faster charging while traveling would not improve the experience (at least for me).

 

[wdolson]

What higher voltage enables is same cabling provided they already shield to more than 1KV isolation. Right now tesla is limited by supercharger. However shortly it will be limited by the cables thickness from charger port to the battery. With 800V they can essentially use the same thickness wire and save money on the copper.

More voltage is mostly a positive thing I think tesla will go to in the future. Maybe even in their roadster.

The car has to be built for 800V which means either an 800V battery pack, or a DC-DC converter on the car to step it down to 400V. DC-DC converters add an energy loss in the chain. I suppose a high voltage one could be made, but I've never heard of one that high voltage. It wouldn't be cheap. I just did a check and an 11 KW DC-DC converter is $13,500. That's retail, but wholesale isn't going to be much less than $8K. And that's just 11KW, which was the highest power one I could find in a quick search. The output is selectable between 240V and 320V.

Today Tesla has a fleet out there of around 500K cars with 350 and 400V packs. They aren't going to retrofit expensive DC-DC converters on them. If they go to 800V chargers to save on cabling, they will have to cut the current to 1/2 what it is now and step it down to 400V for older cars. You want to listen to pre-2019 Tesla owners complain about superchargers throttled to around 50-60KW?

The semi truck chargers may be 800V or more, those are going to be larger packs with more cells and probably a higher DC voltage than the cars. The new Roadster which essentially has two Model S packs could be 800V and might be able to charge at the semi chargers, but I don't see Tesla going to 800V chargers for the other cars. The superchargers for the cars will remain 400V with the heavier cabling.

I'm also not sure we're going to see all that many 800V chargers for CCS out in the real world. I expect most are going to be lower voltage and lower power. I would bet where we will see the most 800V chargers will be at race tracks for performance EVs. The only announcements of 800V systems I've seen have been for sports cars.

 

[jgs]

Why?? What is the big hurry?

I have a route I drive pretty often, Ann Arbor to Chicago and back. As a bazillion people have pointed out, Supercharging along that route takes me, practically speaking, zero extra minutes out of my trip time ordinarily because a man’s gotta pee and a man’s gotta eat. However, even though I do like the Five Guys in St. Joseph, it pains me to always drive on past Bell’s Eccentric Café in Kalamazoo.

If I could stop and have a burger and beer at Bell’s without paying the price of cooling my heels waiting for the car to charge in St. Joseph, that would be a good thing.

 

[RogerHScott]

As for higher voltage increasing the net capacity of SpC sites (and thus reducing the average wait time), that just doesn't wash. The job of an SpC is to deliver energy to cars, and that energy is measured in kWh, which is voltage (kV) * current (amperes) * time (hours). If you double the voltage but halve the current the kW stays the same. The limiting factor on how many cars a given SpC can charge per hour is its total power draw from the electric grid, and changing the voltage supplied to the cars doesn't change that. I'm sure some locations have surplus power capacity available (at least today), but many SpC locations in urban locations already operate at less than the maximum ~100kW charging rate (I assume) due to supply limits.

 

[noicepls]

What happened to the "starting at 70k" model?

What happened to the 70K model? Same thing that happened to the 35K Model 3 - market price adjustment.

 

[VT_EE]

As for higher voltage increasing the net capacity of SpC sites (and thus reducing the average wait time), that just doesn't wash. The job of an SpC is to deliver energy to cars, and that energy is measured in kWh, which is voltage (kV) * current (amperes) * time (hours). If you double the voltage but halve the current the kW stays the same. The limiting factor on how many cars a given SpC can charge per hour is its total power draw from the electric grid, and changing the voltage supplied to the cars doesn't change that. I'm sure some locations have surplus power capacity available (at least today), but many SpC locations in urban locations already operate at less than the maximum ~100kW charging rate (I assume) due to supply limits.

Good point on the grid limitations. I have a feeling we’ll eventually see Powerpacks with version 3 SCs.