Porsche Mission E

[CarlK]

Every sportscar enthusiast must know this legendary beast of a car.
This's mine:
View attachment 408000

Apparently not 15 year old "enthusiast" typing in mom's basement.

Nice car and nice that you are still around. We used to have a Saturday morning gethering for outing on the mountains with mostly Porsche but other sports cars too. That ended after a very active and respected member drove off the cliff and got killed in his GT2. Safety over fun always.

@seattlite2004 Less chance one gets killed in a Tesla whether human or machine drives it. There are statistics to show that.

 

[wdolson]

Very true.

It's a bit of a culture clash, brought forth by the availability of TM3P that can actually handle some track time.

Being that this is a highly passionate and judgmental forum, the consensus crowd really doesn't welcome folks with different opinions and preferences of how they want to enjoy driving their Tesla's.
That's unfortunate, but self-evident.

I've watched threads here where people were loosing their minds, and were ready to call police, over folks driving in Track Mode on the streets.
'nuff said.

a

I've seen people here who leave Ludicrous with their S on all the time too. In most street situations that sort of performance is more likely to get them into more problems than it will get them out of them. Modern traction control helps prevent out of control accidents, but most drivers don't know how to handle that much power available with no restriction.

There are those who can, but the majority of drivers panic and do the wrong things when things start going pear shaped. Back in the mid-90s we heard a co-worker's wife was in the hospital in bad shape after an accident and we didn't see him for a few weeks. He burned up all his vacation first sitting with her in the hospital and then getting her settled at home after a few surgeries.

When he came back he said her dream car was a V-8 Ford Mustang and she had finally bought one a couple of years before. In Seattle the summers are dry and oil builds up on the roads so the roads are very slick for the first couple of rains in the fall. She was trying to pull out of a driveway into traffic in that situation and the car began to break free. Instead of letting off the throttle and trying to get traction again, she gunned it which made things worse. There are a lot of videos out on YouTube of people getting into trouble with pre-traction control V-8 Mustangs.

I love driving mountain roads to the limits of what the car can do. I love it in my S, it's the best mountain goat I've ever driven (I've never driven a high performance sports car, I'm sure a car with more sports oriented suspension and lighter weight would be ever better). But I've also been cautious learning the capabilities of the car and what I'm capable of.

Back when I was in college I drove some pretty remote roads in California several times a year (between San Luis Obispo and Bakersfield) and I pushed my cars to the limit. The first ticket I got I was over 100 when I saw the cop, but he only gave me a ticket for 65 in a 55. I had a few mishaps where I misjudged curves, but I was lucky and there happened to be a lot of room to skid in the dirt around those corners. Some of the other corners were not as forgiving and I was lucky not to over do it there.

Out there in the middle of nowhere I had some interesting adventures. I got caught in the middle of an actual cattle drive once, I saw 2 California Condors about a year apart. The last one a few weeks after they announced the last one had been brought in from the while. It was sitting in the middle of the road when I came around a corner. That is a massive bird.

1975 Porsche 911 Turbo (930) is known as the "widowmaker" as it was fun as heck to drive with 300hp RWD and low weight and sudden turbo boost as was common in the early turbo days with very little safety (no airbags,...).
Lots of people crashed and died, therefore the nickname "widowmaker".
Every sportscar enthusiast must know this legendary beast of a car.
This's mine:
View attachment 408000

I had a friend in Seattle who had an early 911 in the early 70s. He was road rallying with some friends in California and went off the road in the mountains where there was no guardrail. The car landed on top of a big tree and stuck there. They brought in a crane truck, lifted the car off the tree and he drove home. The damage was very minimal.

Before going into the Air Force he described his teen job as "transporting alcoholic beverages without the proper tax paperwork". His uncle was a moonshiner in Alabama and he drove a modified 1950s Chevy with a big tank where the backseat had been. He had a special release valve that could dump the load on the road if necessary. After a high speed chase where the sheriff got stranded in a corn field and he got away, he was arrested and given a choice of going into the military or going to prison. He was confused because he thought his uncle owned that judge. He found out years later his uncle had done a favor to his mother to get him out of town.

He ended up in Vietnam and even though he was technically a non-combatant he ended up getting 3 purple hearts in 6 weeks. The third was just before his enlistment was up and he decided he was done with military life when a sniper shot him in the mouth it went in one cheek and out the other. He has a full beard today to cover the scars.

 

[afadeev]

@seattlite2004 Less chance one gets killed in a Tesla whether human or machine drives it. There are statistics to show that.

Care to cite actual publishes data points?
I've heard lots of prayers that this might be true, but zero facts.

I have no idea what you are referring to as "widowmaker", but suspect that comment was not grounded in experience of track driving, or owning a Porsche (or another sports car).

1975 Porsche 911 Turbo (930) is known as the "widowmaker" [...]Every sportscar enthusiast must know this legendary beast of a car.

Thanks for the reference, but that's a car from before my time.
I had dabbed into a 993, then returned to ///M-cars.

The other guy was introducing the "widowmaker" as a bogie-man for driving with TC OFF, or driving anywhere near vehicle's limits.
That counter-argument still makes no sense to me, but thanks for the historical reference to the 930.

Either way, back on the subject.
All my searches for "Taycan" background info has not gone unnoticed by Google, who is now serving up fresh updates on the Porsche's Nürburgring tests:
Porsche Taycan Spied Turning Silent Laps At The Nürburgring

Something tells me Porsche has done the homework on battery and motor cooling, and wont be dropping into limp mode midway trough the lap.

a

 

[Zer0t]

I would never want to explore car's "handling limit". It suits me just fine if it's out of reach especially on a track. That comment is pretty amateurish. You really want to drive a "widowmaker' to have fun? I know Porsche no longer makes widowmakers but that explore handling limit comment just reminded me how some people at those times would make a deficiency into a desirable thing until they knew better.

One thing you probably still don't understand is there is nothing so special about tracktion control turned off. Every car's chassis is still tuned to certain driving needs and they are always just the best compromise. Serious drivers would still do their own mods. The ability to have electronically controled and adjusted traction control is the next best thing to supspension mods if not the best thing.



No he liked the track mode because it enalbed him to get a track time than betters that of BMW M3. Tesla can tune the track mode to get whatever is the best for the performance including anything you mentioned here. I'm pretty sure there will be a lot more improvements in the future from Tesla. BTW using differential to transfer torque is not necessarily a desirable thing to do. It has a long reaction time and defeat the purpose of have the fast feedback loop of the electornic control system. I also have to think that you're arguing for the argument's sake. Do you like to turn off the traction control or not?

The 996 GT2 was called the widow-maker, I have one, but the term is still used, loosely, for newer ones.

 

[CarlK]

The 996 GT2 was called the widow-maker, I have one, but the term is still used, loosely, for newer ones.

Strictly speaking @Valore's account is the most accurate. All early 911's have the issue of light weight car with heavy rear weight plus a lot of power. Although that widonmaker honor originally did go to 930 turbo due to turbo power lag/surge that made throttle control difficult. You are probably right too the name had been loosely used for all 911 until more recently when Porsche started adding electronic nannies to the car to make it more driveable.

 

[diamond.g]

Care to cite actual publishes data points?
I've heard lots of prayers that this might be true, but zero facts.



Thanks for the reference, but that's a car from before my time.
I had dabbed into a 993, then returned to ///M-cars.

The other guy was introducing the "widowmaker" as a bogie-man for driving with TC OFF, or driving anywhere near vehicle's limits.
That counter-argument still makes no sense to me, but thanks for the historical reference to the 930.

Either way, back on the subject.
All my searches for "Taycan" background info has not gone unnoticed by Google, who is now serving up fresh updates on the Porsche's Nürburgring tests:
Porsche Taycan Spied Turning Silent Laps At The Nürburgring

Something tells me Porsche has done the homework on battery and motor cooling, and wont be dropping into limp mode midway trough the lap.

a

I wonder how much of an advantage only having to pull half the amps (lets assume the Taycan puts out the same HP as the Performance S) is for heat load. Do we know if Porsche is using a cooling plate (like basically everyone else) or are they routing coolant through the cells (like Tesla)?

 

[wdolson]

I wonder how much of an advantage only having to pull half the amps (lets assume the Taycan puts out the same HP as the Performance S) is for heat load. Do we know if Porsche is using a cooling plate (like basically everyone else) or are they routing coolant through the cells (like Tesla)?

Power is Voltage * Current. If the current is 1/2, and the voltage is doubled, the power is the same. If they are trying to get the same performance out of a pack, the current draw at the cell level is pretty much the same, per volume. The voltage of a cell is set by the chemistry and all li-ion cells I've seen are in the 3.5-4.5V range. At least any that are useful for automotive applications.

The AH capacity and peak safe current output of a cell are controlled by chemistry and the size of the cell. A larger cell has a larger current capability per cell, but because a larger cell is tougher to cool, the actual safe current per volume is usually lower.

If Porsche is going to compete with Tesla on performance, they need relatively small cells with an active cooling system like Tesla has. Tesla's calculations found the best energy density/cooling trade off is found with a 2170 cell. Get much bigger than that and keeping the center of the cell cool under high load gets difficult.

 

[hydro 481]

2020 Porsche Taycan - First Prototype Ride Video Review

It's definitely more Panamera than Mission E but I still think it's a nice looking car. But for some reason the side view in that video makes it look more frumpy than in recent pictures. Official reveal is about 4 months way so we will soon find out. The Model S is already struggling to sell. The Taycan will be it's first real competitor. I think Tesla's gonna have to revamp the Model S soon...

 

[Valore]

 

[Valore]

 

[diamond.g]

I wonder why it has a roll cage in it.

 

[Nilnoc]

Yeah, looks harder to enter and exit than a Model S, which this 70-something passed on in favor of his Model X.

Love watching fellow geezers and their Porsches and 'vettes.... That's dedication, determination, and pain.

 

[Valore]

I wonder why it has a roll cage in it.

Photos are taken near Nurburgring, that famous race track.
They were probably all out testing this thing on the track. Safety I guess.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Think interior size wise this competes more with the Model 3. The Model 3 has much more room inside than the Taycan. Model S is a full class larger.

Seems the only thing the Taycan has going for it is that the extended track performance. Not sure it will even out perform the Model 3 Performance, yet alone the Model S Ludicrous.

That guy looked super cramped in the back seat of the Taycan. Certainly not sutable for adults for any distance.

Biggest complaint is that the Taycan is just not good looking, especially when everyone's hopes were high due to the concept.

It will find a market. The Porsche brand is strong, but it's competitive advantages seem mostly that it is more trackable than a Tesla. Small market.

When the Tesla New Coupe arrives, the Taycan will loose all bragging rights.

 

[afadeev]

Think interior size wise this competes more with the Model 3. The Model 3 has much more room inside than the Taycan. Model S is a full class larger.

Perhaps. Time will tell where the interior falls in after the car is launched.

Seems the only thing the Taycan has going for it is that the extended track performance. Not sure it will even out perform the Model 3 Performance, yet alone the Model S Ludicrous.

Given the fact that Porsche is actually testing at Nurburgring, I will bet you it will run the lap without dropping into limp-home-mode, like all Tesla's do today.

Neither TM3P nor MS-Ludicrous can complete a lap at Nurburgring, without overheating, as of today.

That guy looked super cramped in the back seat of the Taycan. Certainly not sutable for adults for any distance.

Biggest complaint is that the Taycan is just not good looking, especially when everyone's hopes were high due to the concept.

Taycan in these pics has a roll cage fitted, which is a factory-spec protection for Nurburgring test laps.
I would not draw any conclusions about production Taycan interior comforts from observing the roll-caged mule. For what it's worth, I did not see any sign of rear-seat passengers in the pics above. The car looks pretty good overall, to me.

When the Tesla New Coupe arrives, the Taycan will loose all bragging rights.

Those two cars will be competing in two entirely separate market segments, at two very different price points.

a

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Given the fact that Porsche is actually testing at Nurburgring, I will bet you it will run the lap without dropping into limp-home-mode, like all Tesla's do today.

Neither TM3P nor MS-Ludicrous can complete a lap at Nurburgring, without overheating, as of today

This is news to me, hadn't heard of the Performance 3 going into limp mode on the Nurburgring...and I believe an owner took one around not but a few days ago.

 

[afadeev]

This is news to me, hadn't heard of the Performance 3 going into limp mode on the Nurburgring...and I believe an owner took one around not but a few days ago.

Google or search YouTube, you will find it.
TM3P battery overheated 1/2 way through the Nurburgring lap.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Google or search YouTube, you will find it.
TM3P battery overheated 1/2 way through the Nurburgring lap.

My google-fu isn't working, apparently. The only reference I can find to a TM3P overheating on the Nurburgring has to do with the brakes.

 

[strider]

Well, when it comes time to replace our latest MS I will be shopping around. Tesla's latest BS with not replacing yellow screens (which my car has had since Day 1) under warranty is a bridge too far. I'm not in the market today and I hope that Tesla will earn my loyalty and make this right. But I am cheering Tesla's competitors as it will make Tesla get it's shite together or die.

 

[ACA Man]

I could be wrong here but as far as I can tell, nobody in The US has sat in a Taycan and yet they know it’s smaller and/or inferior to a certain Tesla car.