Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[AlanSubie4Life]

Even in non-US markets where the official rating is something other than the EPA rating?

Yes.

 

[Steve446]

Yes, average battery temperature should be well below 25°C, it is not hot around here and the car is parked in an underground garage that keeps around 18°C year round. Average SoC should be below 50% I think.



The rebate club



Indeed, but I am curious about the max EPA kilometers shown in these cars when brand new. If I recall correctly it was sold to me as 580km WLTP range.

You are correct. I bought my M3 on the basis of 614 KM WlTP, things turned out differently and I quickly learned that I received something else that had been discounted - which I accepted (it paid for the change of colour). Some of us thought that Tesla had not been completely transparent about all that. Well, that's another story and water under the bridge. I guess you have the same story like quite a few others. Right now, I'm completely satisfied with my car. Driving in Europe generally does not require more than 400 KM real world range which I get with a margin to spare so as @AAKEE said earlier, definitely LR and great efficiently compared to any other BEV I've heard of (happy to be corrected). Finally if your average SoC is say, 40% (like my car) then the suggestion for degradation I made earlier is possible (I'm happy to be corrected). Check @AAKEE's graphs or Fig 5 of this article where his graphs come from: (you have an NMC battery I believe).

 

[Steve446]

EPA rated miles/km is what is shown in the vehicle.

This was about 568km for the 77.8kWh battery. I don’t remember because not sure what the initial capacity was exactly for the LG. But assuming it was 75kWh that would suggest 568km*75kWh/77.8kWh = 548km

But there is a thread around here where this is documented. Just too lazy to look it up. It might have also varied from vehicle to vehicle a little bit (a few km) because the degradation threshold may have still been set to 77.8kWh (not sure about that).

Yep my car had 550 Km @ 100% on delivery. has remained around 540 ever since.

 

[Bouba]

Yes, average battery temperature should be well below 25°C, it is not hot around here and the car is parked in an underground garage that keeps around 18°C year round. Average SoC should be below 50% I think.



The rebate club



Indeed, but I am curious about the max EPA kilometers shown in these cars when brand new. If I recall correctly it was sold to me as 580km WLTP range.

EPA rated miles/km is what is shown in the vehicle.

This was about 568km for the 77.8kWh battery. I don’t remember because not sure what the initial capacity was exactly for the LG. But assuming it was 75kWh that would suggest 568km*75kWh/77.8kWh = 548km

But there is a thread around here where this is documented. Just too lazy to look it up. It might have also varied from vehicle to vehicle a little bit (a few km) because the degradation threshold may have still been set to 77.8kWh (not sure about that).

The LG75 was presented to us with a WLTP of 580 km..of course that doesn’t ever show in the car because the battery icon only shows EPA…which isn’t as generous…I believe that the WLTP for the 83 kWh battery was 614…but was lowered by about 10km with the new chip

 

[Bouba]

You are correct. I bought my M3 on the basis of 614 KM WlTP, things turned out differently and I quickly learned that I received something else that had been discounted - which I accepted (it paid for the change of colour). Some of us thought that Tesla had not been completely transparent about all that. Well, that's another story and water under the bridge. I guess you have the same story like quite a few others. Right now, I'm completely satisfied with my car. Driving in Europe generally does not require more than 400 KM real world range which I get with a margin to spare so as @AAKEE said earlier, definitely LR and great efficiently compared to any other BEV I've heard of (happy to be corrected). Finally if your average SoC is say, 40% (like my car) then the suggestion for degradation I made earlier is possible (I'm happy to be corrected). Check @AAKEE's graphs or Fig 5 of this article where his graphs come from: (you have an NMC battery I believe).

Yes…mine was the same bitter story…again, now water under the bridge and I love my car (actually too much…I can hardly use it because I am afraid to park it in case someone parks too close…new car syndrome is a serious condition).
As well as the €1000 discount we got rapid delivery….and you have to look at the mindset of a new Tesla owner…after all my research all I was worried about was the build quality…panel gaps…roofs cracking…fenders falling off..all the horror stories that were dominating the web when the M3 first came out. Batteries didn’t even cross my mind…all I knew was that the Long Range had a big one and the M3 didn’t

 

[travis3000]

Was wondering if someone can explain this to me. I set my charge last night to 70% , woke up this morning and my car was at 400KM. I did the reverse math and it took my 100% charge to 571KM. But when I bought my car it was rated at 567KM. How can my battery give me more range 16 months and 31,000KM of driving later? I figured I would have seen some degradation by now.

Since I bought the car my charging has been 93% at home (26KM/hour), and 7% supercharging. I try to keep it within 30-70% the vast majority of time I charge at home except when I need the additional mileage when I go to 80-90% but this is rare.

Just curious why Ive had no range loss yet. You guys are smarter than me with this battery stuff haha.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I set my charge last night to 70%

Did you check to see what it actually charged to? (Flip back to % display.)

How can my battery give me more range 16 months and 31,000KM of driving later? I figured I would have seen some degradation by now.

If you were lucky enough to get an 82.1kWh battery (16 months ago this was possible), you received a boost in rated range to the 79kWh degradation threshold (from 77.8kWh), meaning 358rmi or 576rkm (instead of 353mi/568km). Even with a 2021. It occurred in a software update in Fall 2021 AFAIK. This aligned the range with equivalent vehicles sold in 2022 (with this new 358rmi EPA rating, using the same 82.1kWh battery - the 2021 vehicles were tested with the 77.8kWh battery but many were later produced with “82.1kWh” pack).

This software change should be visible as a small step up in range in TeslaFi/Stats for some 2021 AWD owners who bought just a few months before the change to the threshold - but only if they were still pinned at 568km/353mi before the update.

It wasn’t actually an increase in range or capacity, it just increased the rated range displayed, with no change in the constant. It just changed the degradation threshold, reducing the “squashing” of energy into your rated miles cap. Effectively this change reduced the energy per rated mile - but with no change in the underlying constant (which is not constant if your energy exceeds the degradation threshold…very confusing!).

As @Bouba points out below, it is just possible this is rounding error too. I just think at 16 months you should have enough capacity loss that you should not be still near the original range, even with extrapolation error. So I think it is probably due to charging to a different % than requested, or the pack change.

 

[Bouba]

Was wondering if someone can explain this to me. I set my charge last night to 70% , woke up this morning and my car was at 400KM. I did the reverse math and it took my 100% charge to 571KM. But when I bought my car it was rated at 567KM. How can my battery give me more range 16 months and 31,000KM of driving later? I figured I would have seen some degradation by now.

Since I bought the car my charging has been 93% at home (26KM/hour), and 7% supercharging. I try to keep it within 30-70% the vast majority of time I charge at home except when I need the additional mileage when I go to 80-90% but this is rare.

Just curious why Ive had no range loss yet. You guys are smarter than me with this battery stuff haha.

Someone will be along to tell you the real reason…this is my version…a single percentage point is worth over 5 kilometres…so if you calculate your 100% range when 70% is (say) 395km the result will look bad…but at 400km it will look too good.
You have to know where the car will stop charging at 100% (bottom or top of the 5 km range).
Elon could fix it by giving the percentage to one decimal place

 

[Bouba]

Did you check to see what it actually charged to? (Flip back to % display.)


If you were lucky enough to get an 82.1kWh battery (16 months ago this was possible), you received a boost in rated range to the 79kWh degradation threshold (from 77.8kWh), meaning 358rmi or 576rkm (instead of 353mi/568km). Even with a 2021. It occurred in a software update in Fall 2021 AFAIK. This aligned the range with equivalent vehicles sold in 2022 (with this new EPA rating, using the same 82.1kWh battery - the 2021 vehicles were tested with the 77.8kWh battery but some were later produced with “82.1kWh” pack).

It wasn’t actually an increase in range or capacity, it just increased the rated range displayed, with no change in the constant. It just changed the degradation threshold, reducing the “squashing” of energy into your rated miles cap. Effectively this change reduced the energy per rated mile - but with no change in the underlying constant (which is not constant if your energy exceeds the degradation threshold…very confusing!).

Do you know if the LG75 battery ever received a software boost?

 

[bkp_duke]

Elon - Semi doesn't use 4680's yet.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Do you know if the LG75 battery ever received a software boost?

Not AFAIK.

Important to note that the change above did NOT change the pack capacity or available energy. It is just pure mucking with the way the display works. No change to ANYTHING that actually matters.

Basically Tesla has a MAX number of displayed km/miles they pack all your energy into, until your energy drops below the degradation threshold. So that MAX number does not change as you lose capacity, the miles just become less energetic (less packed). Then when you drop below the threshold you start to lose miles, and the energy packed in per mile finally becomes constant. All they did here was increase the number of miles/km they packed the energy into.

 

[Candleflame]

Even in non-US markets where the official rating is something other than the EPA rating?

yes.
Model S used to have a seting to toggle between EPA and WLTP - it would be typical (EPA) and ideal (WLTP).
They later removed this coz WLTP and especially NDEC are retarded. I mean EPA is too but at least its somewhat achieveable crusing at 90km/h (which is often the recommend max limit in the USA anyway even though comically slow)

 

[Candleflame]

My late September 2021 MIC LR with LG has been kept mostly in the 20% - 55% range, with a few charges above 80%.

Plus five charges to 100% complete for when I visit family in Malmö, max range data shown below:

546km March
544km April
541km July
538km August
537km September

Somewhere around 22000km on the clock for the last reading.

I do not have any special monitoring apps set up, but I feel the degradation is decent?
Being an electric car beginner I did not think of recording the max range figure when the car was brand new, does anyone know typical max value when new for these cars?

Bonus picture of me having all of Varberg to myself, unfortunately the battery had gone bacon so I did not get full effect.

View attachment 865322

kms dont matter that much. 5% rated range loss in year 1 and another 5% in year 2 is typical. It then slows down. Perhaps another 3-4% in year 3 and less and so on.

 

[KenC]

Was wondering if someone can explain this to me. I set my charge last night to 70% , woke up this morning and my car was at 400KM. I did the reverse math and it took my 100% charge to 571KM. But when I bought my car it was rated at 567KM. How can my battery give me more range 16 months and 31,000KM of driving later? I figured I would have seen some degradation by now.

Since I bought the car my charging has been 93% at home (26KM/hour), and 7% supercharging. I try to keep it within 30-70% the vast majority of time I charge at home except when I need the additional mileage when I go to 80-90% but this is rare.

Just curious why Ive had no range loss yet. You guys are smarter than me with this battery stuff haha.

Probably rounding. If the battery was actually 70.5% charged but rounded to 70%, then the math works out to 567km. As for why you show no degradation after 16months and 31km driven? It could just be that the degradation has been slow, so that you're still using the top buffer.

I'm almost 4yrs and 40,000 miles driven and my car is still using up the top buffer, so shows no degradation. SMT shows 76.4kWh.

Anyhow, I notice you're in Toronto and I'm in Maine, northern latitudes. The theory is that cars in hotter climes show faster aging, while those of us in cooler climes show slower aging.

 

[travis3000]

Did you check to see what it actually charged to? (Flip back to % display.)


If you were lucky enough to get an 82.1kWh battery (16 months ago this was possible), you received a boost in rated range to the 79kWh degradation threshold (from 77.8kWh), meaning 358rmi or 576rkm (instead of 353mi/568km). Even with a 2021. It occurred in a software update in Fall 2021 AFAIK. This aligned the range with equivalent vehicles sold in 2022 (with this new 358rmi EPA rating, using the same 82.1kWh battery - the 2021 vehicles were tested with the 77.8kWh battery but many were later produced with “82.1kWh” pack).

This software change should be visible as a small step up in range in TeslaFi/Stats for some 2021 AWD owners who bought just a few months before the change to the threshold - but only if they were still pinned at 568km/353mi before the update.

It wasn’t actually an increase in range or capacity, it just increased the rated range displayed, with no change in the constant. It just changed the degradation threshold, reducing the “squashing” of energy into your rated miles cap. Effectively this change reduced the energy per rated mile - but with no change in the underlying constant (which is not constant if your energy exceeds the degradation threshold…very confusing!).

As @Bouba points out below, it is just possible this is rounding error too. I just think at 16 months you should have enough capacity loss that you should not be still near the original range, even with extrapolation error. So I think it is probably due to charging to a different % than requested, or the pack change.

thank you for the information. Appreciate it! And yes my car was made in May 2021, I checked and it has an 82kWh battery.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

thank you for the information. Appreciate it! And yes my car was made in May 2021, I checked and it has an 82kWh battery.

So that’s the reason then. Just a modification to your degradation threshold. No change in capacity.

If you really have 571km of range (no way to tell from what was provided), then you have about 1% capacity loss minimum, and probably more like 2-3%, since you likely started somewhat above the degradation threshold (what some people call the top buffer but it doesn’t behave like the bottom buffer as explained above).

 

[travis3000]

So that’s the reason then. Just a modification to your degradation threshold. No change in capacity.

If you really have 571km of range (no way to tell from what was provided), then you have about 1% capacity loss minimum, and probably more like 2-3%, since you likely started somewhat above the degradation threshold (what some people call the top buffer but it doesn’t behave like the bottom buffer as explained above).

Absolutely! To be honest I was preparing for way more battery loss. I was told from a few people that during your first year or two you can lose 10-15% of range. Im at the same point I was when I bought it give or take. So Im impressed.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

you have about 1% capacity loss minimum, and probably more like 2-3%

So just over 78kWh down from original 79kWh-81kWh.

. I was told from a few people that during your first year or two you can lose 10-15% of range.

Yeah I say that for NCA too. It’s a reasonable expectation because it is likely to be slightly pessimistic, which is what you want for budgeting. And as mentioned it is cooler for you so you’ll probably do a bit better. Also these are just estimates (the only and best estimate for your pack though), so you have to look at long term trends. The BMS could decide to lop off 2% tomorrow (and be actually correct).

 

[frodebh]

kms dont matter that much. 5% rated range loss in year 1 and another 5% in year 2 is typical. It then slows down. Perhaps another 3-4% in year 3 and less and so on.

Yes. If max range when new is around 550km EPA for this configuration I'm looking at less than 3% loss for the first year.

So happy with the car.

 

[inigoml]

I write here even if is not directly related to "Range Loss over Time....."
I have the new 2022.36.02 and SMT is now Crazy .
I lost NFP and SOC's and all related data.
Just an an example of flickering data:

Just update SMT to latest version. Fix released few days ago