Starting to regret FSD pre-purchase in a major way

[Vines]

how`s a feature that will most likely take longer to hit the market than most ppl will keep the car a "smart purchase"

I have my doubts that this will even be legal on the roads in 2 years, even if the hardware and software are ready. Currently neither are ready, and its only legal in specific circumstances and locations for testing by manufacturers.

 

[mswlogo]

I had zero issue paying for FSD. In the big scheme of things this was not that much money.
I know it might not materialize because of complexity and legalization.

However, driving around town is what will be perhaps decades away.
Highway driving, I see as something feasible within 5 years. And possibly even legally allowed in that time frame (under limited conditions).

V9 (with the ramp to ramp AP) sounds like it is a pretty big deal. This is the first time the car is going to make a "decision" based on a goal.
That is HUGE. Regardless that your hand needs to remain on the wheel.

Up till now, it's just dumbly follows the road.

They can be as cautious as they feel they need to be. They are walking a very fine line releasing this capability without the legal issues sorted out and just keep on saying, keep your hand on the wheel. Maybe it was the Tesla lawyers that stopped them. Who knows.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

V9 (with the ramp to ramp AP) sounds like it is a pretty big deal. This is the first time the car is going to make a "decision" based on a goal.
That is HUGE. Regardless that your hand needs to remain on the wheel.

almost as great as "your car will find you anywhere on your property, park by itself etc etc etc". ...where have we heard that before...hmmmmm.


I´m still highly sceptical that Elon will keep his promises this time.

 

[Bet TSLA]

how`s a feature that will most likely take longer to hit the market than most ppl will keep the car a "smart purchase"

Because it's not "a feature". Rather it's a whole pile of incremental stuff, each item in itself useful but not the whole enchilada. The incremental stuff is likely worth it to many. If you don't want it, don't get it. Insisting that the many people who do want it aren't going to get anything at all is just stupid. I'm happy to predict that people with FSD will have something others don't in this calendar year.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Because it's not "a feature". Rather it's a whole pile of incremental stuff, each item in itself useful but not the whole enchilada. The incremental stuff is likely worth it to many. If you don't want it, don't get it. Insisting that the many people who do want it aren't going to get anything at all is just stupid. I'm happy to predict that people with FSD will have something others don't in this calendar year.

What is incremental FSD? I guess I lack imagination because it's hard for me to imagine.
I've heard stop sign recognition but I can't imagine them releasing that unless it was super reliable. Imagine the press when it runs a stop sign and hits a kid. I think explaining that it's in "beta" and the driver should have been paying attention is a much harder sell in that type of situation versus the highway accidents we've seen from EAP.

 

[Bet TSLA]

What is incremental FSD? I guess I lack imagination because it's hard for me to imagine.
I've heard stop sign recognition but I can't imagine them releasing that unless it was super reliable. Imagine the press when it runs a stop sign and hits a kid. I think explaining that it's in "beta" and the driver should have been paying attention is a much harder sell in that type of situation versus the highway accidents we've seen from EAP.

I think we'll see recognition of stop lights and signs for people with FSD, but not for others. It will work (at first) as well as any new feature, a bit rough and not all the time. The driver is in charge. It will gradually get better. The "Drive on Navigation" feature will show up pretty soon, and will certainly be only for FSD people. I also expect that as we approach level 4 we'll see location based and weather based FSD, which will obviously be available only to those with FSD.

What's the mystery here? Tesla always introduces new features as soon as they provide some incremental advantage, as it would be immoral and irresponsible not to. The fact that they will cause accidents is more that mitigated by the fact that they avoid more accidents. It's a trade-off that's well understood. Waiting for a system that never causes an accident is just plain stupid.

It's well known that both seat belts and airbags kill and maim people sometimes, especially smaller women and children. Are you in favor of eliminating these safety devices? Do you think they should never have been deployed?

 

[BestHand]

I am seriously questioning at this point whether FSD will be available at any point before my car falls apart due to age alone. If that were to be the case, how can it be legal for Tesla to charge customers money up front for a feature they never deliver before the product deprecates beyond usefulness?

Yes it perfectly legal. It is not like you had no choice. You could buy car without that option, also Tesla warned you that FSD may be available in a feature, not like it will be available. I did not buy FSD as I like to be a driver not a passenger. If I like to be a passenger I would not buy a Tesla, I would just use Uber and it would be cheaper.

 

[KenF]

What is incremental FSD? I guess I lack imagination because it's hard for me to imagine.
I've heard stop sign recognition but I can't imagine them releasing that unless it was super reliable. Imagine the press when it runs a stop sign and hits a kid. I think explaining that it's in "beta" and the driver should have been paying attention is a much harder sell in that type of situation versus the highway accidents we've seen from EAP.

I’m with you on the stop lights and stop signs. There’s an immense amount of risk there.

I expect “Drive on Navigation” with automatic lane changes to be available to all owners with EAP; however, I suspect only FSD buyers will be free from the nags. The EAP description states:

Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage...

Every driver is responsible for remaining alert and active when using Autopilot, and must be prepared to take action at any time

In contrast, the description of FSD states:

The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle.

Per the Tesla web site, “park seek mode” (where the Tesla finds a space and parks on its own) will be another FSD exclusive feature.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I think we'll see recognition of stop lights and signs for people with FSD, but not for others. It will work (at first) as well as any new feature, a bit rough and not all the time. The driver is in charge. It will gradually get better. The "Drive on Navigation" feature will show up pretty soon, and will certainly be only for FSD people. I also expect that as we approach level 4 we'll see location based and weather based FSD, which will obviously be available only to those with FSD.

What's the mystery here? Tesla always introduces new features as soon as they provide some incremental advantage, as it would be immoral and irresponsible not to. The fact that they will cause accidents is more that mitigated by the fact that they avoid more accidents. It's a trade-off that's well understood. Waiting for a system that never causes an accident is just plain stupid.

It's well known that both seat belts and airbags kill and maim people sometimes, especially smaller women and children. Are you in favor of eliminating these safety devices? Do you think they should never have been deployed?

I feel like the the reaction time required for the driver to take control if the car doesn't see a stop sign or stop light would be too short to be safe. I suppose I could be wrong. I just can't see that working as a beta feature.
Drive on navigation is in the EAP description. How can you go onramp to offramp without navigation?

 

[Daniel in SD]

I’m with you on the stop lights and stop signs. There’s an immense amount of risk there.

I expect “Drive on Navigation” with automatic lane changes to be available to all owners with EAP; however, I suspect only FSD buyers will be free from the nags. The EAP description states:


In contrast, the description of FSD states:


Per the Tesla web site, “park seek mode” (where the Tesla finds a space and parks on its own) will be another FSD exclusive feature.

So what happens if you ignore the nags (say by attaching a weight to the steering wheel)? Will it randomly crash in to a gore point that it would have avoided if you had bought FSD? Obviously they're going to use the same code base for EAP and FSD unless they upgrade the hardware for FSD.
park seek would require FSD to be functional. I would pay way more than $3k for FSD.

 

[EV-lutioin]

It's an investment of dollars now for future savings. Like all investments, it involves risk.

 

[Knightshade]

I think we'll see recognition of stop lights and signs for people with FSD, but not for others.

Well, yes, since those are features never stated or intended to be part of EAP, but obviously have to exist for FSD to work.

The "Drive on Navigation" feature will show up pretty soon, and will certainly be only for FSD people

Nope. That functionality is explicitly part of EAP as sold.

Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage.

(bold added)

With drive on nav (once they enable the original option in the early-release version to do it without needing driver approval) EAP is essentially "done" in that it's feature complete. They'll keep improving the existing features, but that's basically it.

. I also expect that as we approach level 4 we'll see location based and weather based FSD, which will obviously be available only to those with FSD.

I would think the very first true level 4 FSD from Tesla is going to be simply EAP with no nags and no requirement to hold the wheel at all on true divided highways, since that's the easiest domain to solve self driving for (other than private/closed roads).

 

[Bet TSLA]

Drive on navigation is in the EAP description.

Then I guess some basic version will become available to everybody with EAP. But the line will have to be drawn somewhere. We won't know until it happens.

 

[Kant.Ing]

FSD is for online celebrities.

 

[diamond.g]

Then I guess some basic version will become available to everybody with EAP. But the line will have to be drawn somewhere. We won't know until it happens.

I suspect FSD Nav on AP will also work before and after the onramp.

 

[COM3]

I only even considered it when they announced that you'd get the new computer for "free" when released. I think we'll see that long before actual FSD. Ended up not ordering it.

 

[MXWing]

I only even considered it when they announced that you'd get the new computer for "free" when released. I think we'll see that long before actual FSD. Ended up not ordering it.

FSD shouldn’t be all or nothing. You will get features as they roll out.

True FSD is worth more than the car itself so it’s priced according as a speculative investment.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

I waffled quite a bit but ultimately decided to plunk down the pre-order cash for FSD functionality “when it becomes available.” I knew this was a huge risk, and I was told by several industry insider friends that I shouldn’t, that Tesla - or anyone else - is still many years away from truly delivering this in the way someone would expect when they say “full self driving autonomy.” I did it anyway.

I’ve been patiently waiting for v9, knowing that the “drive on nav,” while clearly not anything close to FSD, would at least be a big step in the right direction.

Now, after over 2 months of teasing a v9 release date only to delay it, tease it again, then delay it some more, Musk comes out a few hours ago to say they’re pulling drive on nav “for a few more weeks.” Not only that, but in doing so, he also mentions that it’s “extremely difficult to achieve a general solution that works well everywhere.”

This is a serious admission of just how far off Tesla is from FSD. It’s that difficult for them to get freeway “semi-autonomy” (until this car stops nagging me every 20-30 sec to grab the wheel, nothing they do is autonomous IMO) working, and freeway driving is FAR less complicated than any other roadway.

I am seriously questioning at this point whether FSD will be available at any point before my car falls apart due to age alone. If that were to be the case, how can it be legal for Tesla to charge customers money up front for a feature they never deliver before the product deprecates beyond usefulness?

Everything you say here is exactly why I didn't buy it.

I do think Tesla will start rolling out features only available for people with FSD in the next year, which will really be just more advanced EAP features, but it will be a long time until the car can drive from home to pick you up from the station on its own, and really that's the kind of thing people want with FSD.

 

[aaron0k]

When Elon announced the first release of AP, he claimed it would stop at stop signs, exit freeways, etc (watch the Dual Motor/AP event video). Then AP2 came out and he said it could drive coast to coast. Then it needed AP 2.5... now it won't be capable without 3.0 hardware.

Really should be called the Fool Self Driving option.

Suckers, all of us....

 

[Knightshade]

When Elon announced the first release of AP, he claimed it would stop at stop signs, exit freeways, etc (watch the Dual Motor/AP event video). Then AP2 came out and he said it could drive coast to coast. Then it needed AP 2.5... now it won't be capable without 3.0 hardware.

Really should be called the Fool Self Driving option.

Suckers, all of us....

You mean this dual motor launch/AP video?

He says it can read/look at signs and lights with the camera. Which, it can.

It does NOT say it DOES anything with that information (though I think AP1 did, for speed limit signs anyway).

So no, he did not claim it would stop at stop signs. Or exit freeways BTW... (though drive on Nav supposedly does do that and is due out shortly)

The things he says it actually DOES are- lane keeping on freeways, emergency braking, auto cruise control, self parking, summon, and location aware home link to open your garage when you get home.

In fact of what he described AP as actually DOING back in 2014, the only thing the car doesn't fully do right now is some of the more advanced bits of summon function.