Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[MP3Mike]

1. I have to charge more frequently. Each journey takes 50% more energy than before. (Bad for the battery.)

How do you figure that the car is 50% less efficient now?

2. I have to charge to a higher SoC (90%+) to regain some of the lost distance. (Bad)
3. Once charged the battery is likely to remain at a higher SoC for longer periods. (Bad)

If what people are posting is true you aren't actually charging your battery to a higher SoC...

 

[Robbie]

I find it interesting that Tesla claim the restriction on my battery is because they want to improve longevity and the health of my battery. Really? So they have reduced the capacity of my battery from 70kWh to 58 kWh. This means:
1. I have to charge more frequently. Each journey takes 50% more energy than before. (Bad for the battery.)
2. I have to charge to a higher SoC (90%+) to regain some of the lost distance. (Bad)
3. Once charged the battery is likely to remain at a higher SoC for longer periods. (Bad)
4. There is a ratio between the charging power and the battery capacity. Called C Rate. Li Ion batteries can survive without damage up to a C Rate of 2
Charging a 70kWh battery on 120 kW Supercharger equals C Rate of 1.7 (Good)
Charging a 58kWh battery on 120 kW Supercharger equals C Rate of 2.08 (Bad)

So it seems that Teslas interference with my battery, to make it healthier and live longer, seems to have now put it in a regime that is worse for its health and longevity in the four main areas.

Does it really take more energy to travel the same distance now? I hadn't heard that one. I was told, and data from Scan My Tesla shows, the new 90% is the old 80%. The service manager at the Costa Mesa SC showed me on their data that 100% charge on my car was actually about 90% now and I asked if I should just start regularly charging to 100% and he said yes.

I don't think anything they did is bad for the car, just for us.

 

[lightningltd]

Does it really take more energy to travel the same distance now? I hadn't heard that one. I was told, and data from Scan My Tesla shows, the new 90% is the old 80%. The service manager at the Costa Mesa SC showed me on their data that 100% charge on my car was actually about 90% now and I asked if I should just start regularly charging to 100% and he said yes.

I don't think anything they did is bad for the car, just for us.

I would charge to 100% (the new 90%) but 2 hours on a SC is too long
I am still upset I cannot make my annual road trip now

 

[Ferrycraigs]

How do you figure that the car is 50% less efficient now?

I don’t think I said it was 50% less efficient. I said I used 50% more energy, and I accept that is poor english. I should just have said it uses 50% more in % terms. And yes I appreciate that % is something of a smoke screen. Before I used to use 1% per 2 miles, or 10% for 20 miles. It now uses 15% for 20 miles. So that looks like a 50% increase, or 33% more overall if you want it to sound better

If what people are posting is true you aren't actually charging your battery to a higher SoC...

Before I would Top up to 80%. But that was 80% of 70kWh battery, so 56kWhs. If I topped up to 80% on my reduced 58kWh battery that would only give me 44.8 kWhs. Topping up to 90% gives 52.2 kWhs, which is closer, but till less.

 

[Droschke]

Well, mine just started showing less available range too!

That's it? Only 9 words?

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Well... you still have a 70 kWh battery. It is just only charging to 83% of capacity (Good).
I agree with everything else you said though!

Except I don’t think I still have a 70 kWh battery. After they reduced Vmax, when it is 100% full it is now only a 58kWh battery. (Bad). It is not a 70 kWh battery that has been capped, they have changed the cell voltage so that when the cell is full, instead of being at 4.2V it is only at 4.1V or 4.0V, or whatever voltage they have changed it to. And when totalled, all the full cells now only total 58kWhs. (Very bad, for me).

 

[Evoforce]

That's it? Only 9 words?

Haven't had time to crunch the numbers, still trying to recover from open heart surgery. Don't have heart attack over this issue! It's possible some things might be more important. Besides, I am lucky to have joined this party! Different party would have been nicer though...

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Does it really take more energy to travel the same distance now? I hadn't heard that one. I was told, and data from Scan My Tesla shows, the new 90% is the old 80%. The service manager at the Costa Mesa SC showed me on their data that 100% charge on my car was actually about 90% now and I asked if I should just start regularly charging to 100% and he said yes.

I don't think anything they did is bad for the car, just for us.

Again, my poor use of English. I didn’t say, or mean to imply, that it uses more Wh/mi, I said it uses more % per trip, which is what I have always had my battery icon showing. I still use, on average, about 320 Wh/mi.

And I am not at all sure I agree with what the Service Manager might have told you. They have changed the cell voltage, so the battery can no longer hold as much energy as it used to. When my battery is 100% full, it is 100% full, ie every cell is at Vmax. There isn’t more battery available elsewhere that might be able to take a charge if I could get at it. In absolute terms, the amount of energy is also still less. 80% of my 70kWh battery held 56kWhs. 90% of my 58kWh battery holds 52.2 kWhs. So the new 90% absolutely does not equate to the old 80%. Close perhaps, but no banana.

In the old days, many 60kWh batteries were actually capped 75 kWh batteries, which had the advantage that you could charge up to 100%, as this wasn't really 100%, nor did it suffer from the extreme tapering as you approached 100%. But that was on a battery that was capped. Our batteries haven’t been capped, their cell voltage has been reduced. That’s different.

Whether it’s only bad for us or the car is debatable. I would contend I am now having to treat my car battery in a way that is less good than I used to.

 

[Droschke]

I would charge to 100% (the new 90%) but 2 hours on a SC is too long
I am still upset I cannot make my annual road trip now

Play chess if you are @2019.28.1

 

[lightningltd]

Play chess if you are @2019.28.1

lol Nope. Not on that one yet. Afraid they may take another 10% for my 'protection'

 

[Droschke]

Haven't had time to crunch the numbers, still trying to recover from open heart surgery. Don't have heart attack over this issue! It's possible some things might be more important. Besides, I am lucky to have joined this party! Different party would have been nicer though...

So sorry. Please ignore my comment. Rest and recover soon.

 

[Evoforce]

So sorry. Please ignore my comment. Rest and recover soon.

Thanks!

 

[Droschke]

In the old days, many 60kWh batteries were actually capped 75 kWh batteries, which had the advantage that you could charge up to 100%, as this wasn't really 100%, nor did it suffer from the extreme tapering as you approached 100%. But that was on a battery that was capped. Our batteries haven’t been capped, their cell voltage has been reduced. That’s different.

I thought the capped 75 kWh batteries as 60 kWh packs were also done by voltage capping. No?

 

[Moorebid]

They have changed the cell voltage, so the battery can no longer hold as much energy as it used to.

In order to do that, they would've had to physically swap the cells in our battery packs; don't think a Mobile Technician could pull that off, and I doubt they've perfected teleportation technology just yet.

In the old days, many 60kWh batteries were actually capped 75 kWh batteries, which had the advantage that you could charge up to 100%, as this wasn't really 100%, nor did it suffer from the extreme tapering as you approached 100%. But that was on a battery that was capped. Our batteries haven’t been capped, their cell voltage has been reduced. That’s different.

No, that's exactly what they've done here — Vmax of our cells is still 4.2 V, but the BMS isn't allowing anything beyond 4.07 V (or roughly 87% of the cells' capacity); the fact that they're calling 4.07 V 100% is a function of the soft-cap. In effect, our 85 kWh packs are now soft-capped 70s — with all the aforementioned benefits.

 

[sorka]

What sucks for me more in the short term is that is this update is installed while I'm in Arizona, I'll have to get towed at least part way as AP1 Tesla's won't charge in some older superchargers with v9. A couple in a 2015 S had to get towed from Indio two days ago when we were there because of this bug.

 

[DJRas]

Except I don’t think I still have a 70 kWh battery. After they reduced Vmax, when it is 100% full it is now only a 58kWh battery. (Bad). It is not a 70 kWh battery that has been capped, they have changed the cell voltage so that when the cell is full, instead of being at 4.2V it is only at 4.1V or 4.0V, or whatever voltage they have changed it to. And when totalled, all the full cells now only total 58kWhs. (Very bad, for me).

Agreed, bad for you, but artificially capped battery DOES preserve the battery life. Which is good for Tesla to not have to replace aging damaged batteries. It still is a 70kWh battery...
Obviously, since every battery in the entire fleet has not been so limited shows Tesla believes our affected batteries have some defects.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

In order to do that, they would've had to physically swap the cells in our battery packs; don't think a Mobile Technician could pull that off, and I doubt they've perfected teleportation technology just yet.

No, that's exactly what they've done here — Vmax of our cells is still 4.2 V, but the BMS isn't allowing anything beyond 4.07 V (or roughly 87% of the cells' capacity); the fact that they're calling 4.07 V 100% is a function of the soft-cap. In effect, our 85 kWh packs are now soft-capped 70s — with all the aforementioned benefits.

I thought Vmax was an arbitrary limit imposed by the BMS. When the cell reaches the predetermined level, BMS indicates 100% full. I don’t think you have to swap the cell for a different one. In theory any cell can take more than 4.2V, it just gets damaged if it is overfull, or empty.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

I thought the capped 75 kWh batteries as 60 kWh packs were also done by voltage capping. No?

I haven’t heard that. Doesn’t mean it’s not true, just that I hadn’t heard it. I thought they were only capped, ie a portion of the battery was made unavailable.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Agreed, bad for you, but artificially capped battery DOES preserve the battery life. Which is good for Tesla to not have to replace aging damaged batteries. It still is a 70kWh battery...
Obviously, since every battery in the entire fleet has not been so limited shows Tesla believes our affected batteries have some defects.

Well whilst we may have to agree to disagree about whether they are capped (all cells remain at 4.2V but some are made unavailable) or voltage limited (all cells are instructed to take less charge), I certainly believe Tesla believes our affected batteries have some defects. Else why would they change them? If so, then it’s a Warranty Issue, or at the very least an Elon promise to repair, refurbish or replace.

 

[Droschke]

What sucks for me more in the short term is that is this update is installed while I'm in Arizona, I'll have to get towed at least part way as AP1 Tesla's won't charge in some older superchargers with v9. A couple in a 2015 S had to get towed from Indio two days ago when we were there because of this bug.

Thanks for the heads up as I did not know about it. However, I've supercharged multiple times at a 5 years old supercharger with v9 with no issue at all, but not in the last 6 months. Is this a bug with the newer v9 software updates? Any more info on this?