Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[lightningltd]

I used to charge to 80% daily so my car would be ready for my commute.
Now the battery coolant pump runs unnecessarily when charging to 80% so I have dropped my daily to 75%.

I did the same. I found a way around the cooling pump running (works for me)...
I THINK the running of the pump at 80% (and 90% for some) is a SHOW that Tesla is putting on to make is THINK something is being done.
When I set my battery to 100%, but unplug it at 80 or 90%, the pumps are NOT running full speed. If I SET it to 80 or 90% and let it stop on its own, they run.
Hmmm....

 

[lightningltd]

I wonder if the three battery pack failures reported in this thread are related to the new diagnostics that Tesla mentioned in a recent firmware release... (One of them mentioned that his battery was capped.)

Appears so... If it is showing cars with the REAL issue, perhaps they SHOULD start lifting ChargeGate and BatteryGate? Or will they continue the thefts?

 

[Chaserr]

it keeps coming back to Tesla having most likely over-stated the capabilities of cartain packs.

This is it in a nut shell. They overstated the capabilities of both their hardware and their warranty.

I THINK the running of the pump at 80% (and 90% for some) is a SHOW that Tesla is putting on to make is THINK something is being done.

I genuinely don't think this is for show. I doubt Tesla wanted to downgrade range, horsepower, charging speed, et cetera and get into all of this trouble. They believe they had to, and they originally said it was because of fires that were happening in parked cars where energy state is stable and typically low, so they wanted less energy in the battery that caught fire than those faulty cars had while parked.

I think Tesla is trying to reduce the amount of energy stored in every possible way they can. They reduced charge speeds because it puts lots of energy into the battery quickly and produces a lot of heat. They removed battery preheating because it adds energy to batteries. They capped voltage and permanently gimped the battery's maximum energy capacity. They lowered regen to reduce more energy and heat input. They run cooling pumps all of the time to reduce thermal energy AND decrease stored energy at the same time. EVERYTHING they are doing says they believe the batteries are unsafe when holding the levels of energy they were designed, sold, and advertised as being capable of using.

This isn't security theater - Tesla has a laser focus on reducing pack energy and they are using every possible avenue they can think of to accomplish this task.

 

[Droschke]

Appears so... If it is showing cars with the REAL issue, perhaps they SHOULD start lifting ChargeGate and BatteryGate? Or will they continue the thefts?

This is my reading based on the information in the other thread:

Let's call all the capped packs, sick batteries
Let's divide the sick battery packs into two categories:
1) Not critically sick (not fatal yet)
2) Critically sick (might die any time soon)

With the 2019.40.2.3 and the deployed diagnostic tool, it appears the tool is identifying some critically sick batteries and they are actively being tagged for possible replacement (as reported in other thread).

It also appears, at least for now, the "not critically sick" batteries can live with the band-aid (capping) till either their warranties expire (warranty replacement avoidance) or become critically sick during the warranty period and possibly be replaced per this newly deployed diagnostic tool.

On Edit:
Not sure if any of the packs identified by the diagnostic tool is "in" warranty period? I hope the tool is not only going after the packs with no warranty! I posted the question in the other thread.

 

[gmo43]

Isn't mediation scheduled for another month and a half? And you are expecting an update this week?

Wishful thinking.....

 

[jaitch]

.....
I genuinely don't think this is for show. I doubt Tesla wanted to downgrade range, horsepower, charging speed, et cetera and get into all of this trouble. They believe they had to, and they originally said it was because of fires that were happening in parked cars where energy state is stable and typically low, so they wanted less energy in the battery that caught fire than those faulty cars had while parked.

I think Tesla is trying to reduce the amount of energy stored in every possible way they can. They reduced charge speeds because it puts lots of energy into the battery quickly and produces a lot of heat. They removed battery preheating because it adds energy to batteries. They capped voltage and permanently gimped the battery's maximum energy capacity. They lowered regen to reduce more energy and heat input. They run cooling pumps all of the time to reduce thermal energy AND decrease stored energy at the same time. EVERYTHING they are doing says they believe the batteries are unsafe when holding the levels of energy they were designed, sold, and advertised as being capable of using.

This isn't security theater - Tesla has a laser focus on reducing pack energy and they are using every possible avenue they can think of to accomplish this task.

Agreed and I can also imagine/hope that all these changes are helping Tesla to potentially have the information they need in order to start giving voltage back - in some circumstances. Doesn't make any of it right I am just hoping some good will come of it - if you can call it that (ie getting back what you previously had). Maybe they could up the voltage past 4.2 volts as a thank you! Actually scrub that idea as then we have even more chance of reduced battery life.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

I did the same. I found a way around the cooling pump running (works for me)...
I THINK the running of the pump at 80% (and 90% for some) is a SHOW that Tesla is putting on to make is THINK something is being done.
When I set my battery to 100%, but unplug it at 80 or 90%, the pumps are NOT running full speed. If I SET it to 80 or 90% and let it stop on its own, they run.
Hmmm....

sure they are not warming instead of cooling?
not that I think that is the case but ??
could just be trying to get all cells at the same temp. there is quite a bit of variability between the inlet and outlet temps depending on circumstances

 

[mswlogo]

I did the same. I found a way around the cooling pump running (works for me)...
I THINK the running of the pump at 80% (and 90% for some) is a SHOW that Tesla is putting on to make is THINK something is being done.
When I set my battery to 100%, but unplug it at 80 or 90%, the pumps are NOT running full speed. If I SET it to 80 or 90% and let it stop on its own, they run.
Hmmm....

And a perfect recipe on how to accelerate degradation. Don't abort charging on a regular basis. Occasionally is not a big deal. You mess up it's balancing plan.

 

[lightningltd]

And a perfect recipe on how to accelerate degradation. Don't abort charging on a regular basis. Occasionally is not a big deal. You mess up it's balancing plan.

And WHERE is that written??? I have never even heard that proposed as a theory.

 

[jkennebeck]

And a perfect recipe on how to accelerate degradation. Don't abort charging on a regular basis. Occasionally is not a big deal. You mess up it's balancing plan.

source please???

 

[Kim.T]

sure they are not warming instead of cooling?
not that I think that is the case but ??
could just be trying to get all cells at the same temp. there is quite a bit of variability between the inlet and outlet temps depending on circumstances

I'm starting to log data using ScanMyTesla and TeslaLogger.
First a description of the new behavior for charging in cold weather :
1: My car will not start to charge until the battery is approx 3,5C. Until that 2,6kW is put into the pre heater (icon is visible in the app, and the app just says "Charging" - no end time.
2: When 3,5C is reached, charging will slowly raise to 6,3kW - and pre heater is still on.
3: At 9,3C the pre heater will turn off, and charging is now up to 9,3kW (it is the max my car is configured to take at home)

Pump.
My best guess is that the pumps are running until the cell temp is down to approx. 15C. The 400V system is drawing approx 3-400W while the pumps are running (and the car is humming)

Here from this night. The car was charged directly after work. Cell temp at end (SoC 82%) was 28,6C, and you can see that the battery power (kW) went from -9,2kW (charging) to 0,3kW - this is the pump running. Here after 2 hours the temp is down to 23,6C. So my best guess is that the pump is running several hours

 

[Battpower]

And a perfect recipe on how to accelerate degradation. Don't abort charging on a regular basis.

From radio controlled model experience I can confirm that repeatedly skipping balancing will favour over charge / undercharge imbalance and eventually ruin the battery. I can't see any reason that the same would not apply here.

 

[Chaserr]

That sounds like the sort of programming mistake Tesla was so sure they would never make they created a "World's Best Warranty Program" to protects us from.

 

[omarsultan]

Tesla having most likely over-stated the capabilities of cartain packs

I am not sure about the intent this implies. I don't believe they purposefully did this. I think its more likely they were not as smart as they thought they were--might explain JB's departure.

 

[lightningltd]

From radio controlled model experience I can confirm that repeatedly skipping balancing will favour over charge / undercharge imbalance and eventually ruin the battery. I can't see any reason that the same would not apply here.

There is a big difference between the BMS in a tesla and in Radio control. The BMS in a Tesla is MUCH more advanced and designed from the start to be used with various states of charge. There is no difference in the KW when you charge to 90% while set to 90% and stop at 90% when set to 100%.

 

[Chaserr]

I am not sure about the intent this implies. I don't believe they purposefully did this. I think its more likely they were not as smart as they thought they were--might explain JB's departure.

There is no intent implied it's a statement of fact. Tesla overstated the capabilities of 4.2v packs, by about the degree they felt they had to cap products they had sold with uncapped capabilities.

Motive is an entire;y different topic. The fact is these batteries are capped, tesla admits to those caps, and if they hadn't overestimated the capabilities of these batteries they would not be capped.

A Bit About Batteries

Here is Tesla themselves explaining why they feel it is best to cap batteries from the factory. They later believed this was no longer necessary, and then later on after that they realized capping was necessary again. The middle time - when we bought our cars - Tesla seems to have overestimated things when they sold packs rated with a full 4.2v charge. In Tesla's own words:

Voltages over 4.15V/cell (about 95 percent state of charge [SOC]) and voltages below 3.00V/cell (about 2 percent SOC) cause more stress on the insides of the cell (both physical and electrical).

And now Tesla has capped batteries both on the high volt side (classic batterygate) and low end (Bjorn's demonstration Model 3 Prformance capping). The caps aren't there for no reason, Tesla is worried about something bigger than all this fallout they created by breaking the law. This shows they have probably overestimated the capabilities of batteries they sold and ignored their own advice.

Motivation? Who knows and Tesla won't talk to us and Elon can't even reach anyone at Tesla to tell Service Centers he keeps telling customers we can upgrade to MCU2. We can guess all day about motivation. But facts? Tesla told us they had to cap batteries before a single one of us owned a Tesla, but then overestimated the impacts of selling uncapped batteries.

 

[Battpower]

Another anecdotal observation for what it's worth.

I just drove a few hundred miles on French freeways. Ambient around 6 to 10 deg C. Convoyed loosely with
a couple of cars, S X and 3 and also charged alongside quite a few others that would have likely been follow similar routes.

My Raven S LR charged in silence. At 150kw chargers, maxd at 125kw between 20 and 35% so. Between 50 and 80% typically around 55kw.

M3's I saw seemed silent too. All pre-facelift S and X charging with a huge noise from the cars - I assume cooling since all cars likely mid longish high speed drive.

My car had no regen limit for whole journey so assume batteries all likely at working temp.

There is a big difference between the BMS in a tesla and in Radio control. The BMS in a Tesla is MUCH more advanced and designed from the start to be used wnsith various states of charge. There is no difference in the KW when you charge to 90% while set to 90% and stop at 90% when set to 100%.

Of course, but surely the risk of not allowing balancing to complete would be a negative factor? And my point was no more than that. Do we know how Tesla keeps balance if interrupted repeatedly ?

 

[Battpower]

There is no difference in the KW when you charge to 90% while set to 90% and stop at 90% when set to 100%.

I don't know enough about Tesla to agree or disagree. Do you know for sure that cell balance is maintained at all soc? That would be relavent.

 

[Battpower]

The fact is these batteries are capped, tesla admits to those caps, and if they hadn't overestimated the capabilities of these batteries they would not be capped.

A Bit About Batteries

Here is Tesla themselves explaining why they feel it is best to cap batteries from the factory.

Enjoyed the reminder in that article. The roadster was the first EV I drove and that article is what persuaded me to wait a while. I bet few if any of those issues have disappeared today. Look on the Roadster forum.

 

[Droschke]

I am not sure about the intent this implies. I don't believe they purposefully did this. I think its more likely they were not as smart as they thought they were--might explain JB's departure.

Not sure when it is supposed to become "purposeful". If you sell a product and hype it up marketing wise to look like one of a kind then, yes, it is purposeful. I believe they knew about the pros and cons of pushing the limits. They took the risk, by favoring the hype, and we are where we are.