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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
I'm in Europe too.
As far as i know the US class action suit only applies to the US, so for us in Europe and all over the world i think the best thing to do now i wait to see where the NHTSA investigation and the US class action suit goes.
If both (or at least one of them) go against Tesla, then it will benefit us all, as i doubt Tesla will avoid applying whatever decision comes out with the "justification" it's only for US consumers...
What do you think Condition Z is?
Lithium plating is not a binary condition. It is a matter of degree, and even different species of it. All battery mfrs have to deal with it and attempt to minimize it from happening, mitigate it when it does happen, and reverse it/ strip it when possible.
Ignoring these details and just claiming that lithium plating causes fires and all batteries subject to lithium plating should be recalled ignores these important details.
Oh, then what was it?
This is an internet forum -- speculate and hypothesize and conject. Why is no one else offering informed intelligent hypothesis on what Condition Z is? Why so afraid to inquire into the actual science and facts of what happened to the battery? Afraid that the answer might be wear due to usage?
Of course the BMS responds to the condition of the battery. And it should do so to maximize the long term usage of the battery so that batteries even out of warranty will still have useful lives as much as possible.
OK fair point. I don't disagree. But only making the point that if it was a design defect in the battery that would be indicated by much more incidents of the defect. But because it is so rare that makes it more likely to be due to variations in the usage history of the battery. The rare incidence isn't dispositive one way or another, but it does indicate that the rarity of the affected batteries is perhaps more attributable to variations in the usage history of the battery and resultant wear.
How many fires were reported before the volt capping of Condition Z batteries? I recall only a few in the whole lifetime of Tesla. The China one in the garage and that actor in LA driving down the street. The others were caused by physical damage: accidents or even one guy shooting his battery.
So telling that still no one offers an alternative explanation of Condition Z, and no one states how much range the affected batteries have lost. Anyone denied a replacement with more than > 30% loss?
Great. Just great. Got this new notification this morning. Tesla mothership trying to force me to software update. I’ve been denying updates since before batterygate and chargegate so my high usage pack doesn’t get nerfed. 203,986 miles with about 120k of that supercharged. This is their way of forcing that update all the software is going to stop working.
If you decide to update, Take time stamped pictures of your current rated range at full charge, take a video of your supercharging speed (if you haven't been effected by charge gate and battery gate). That way if your battery is nerfed you will have proof to compare it to. It is a shame that it has come down to reactions like this in dealing with Tesla.
Ferrycraigs
Member
Alarm bells should be ringing, and this is just another example of 'the only thing needed for bad people to succeed is for good people to do nothing’.
They capped 90s to a slower charge speed. Owners complained, but Tesla ignored them and stood firm.
They capped the battery. Owners complained and Tesla ignored them and stood firm.
They throttled charge speeds. Owners complained and Tesla ignored them and stood firm.
Their position seemed to be, you might own the car, but we hold all the cards. If you don’t like it, sue. Eventually someone did. David, I hope you whip them to within an inch of their lives, and then set fire to them.
From the start of batterygate, and in particular because my capped battery no longer does what I need it to do (barely gets 150 miles incl buffer) I have been thinking of selling my lovely car and getting another from a different brand. Tesla can NOT be trusted. Always, it was the Supercharging network that was the clincher. On a long journey, they really are exceptionally good, even if the charge rate has been reduced. So, thoughts of jumping ship always floundered at that point.
Then, She Who Must Be Obeyed observed, if it’s only the long distance trips that are a real issue, and another EV, at half or third the price of a Tesla would meet 95% of your trips, and we only do long journeys once or twice per year, have you thought of just hiring a car for those long trips? Light bulb moment.
No shame...we can just admit how wrong we were with this company. And for one, we can make sure no one we know will do the same mistake we did
I live in Mn and went to Discount Tire to transfer my tire warranty on my Tesla and they knew about the battery issues. This thread and the battery issues are becoming more common knowledge.
It's still an imaginary thing Tesla has never even mentioned. An obsession of some, perhaps, but a baseless one. A gossipy juicy circular thought that can't be ignored because it represents, in the minds of those that believe it exists, the end of Tesla as a company... but only if it exists, and even in that case only if it's something as exceptionally hazardous as li plating.
It doesn't exist. It's a boogeyman meant to scare you, there is no lithium plating under your bed. Don't obsess over imagination - this thread is about what we KNOW and we don't know if Z exists or not, it's the suggestion of a single unreliable man who has already made himself a liar about this exact topic - perhaps because the rumors are right and it could end the company, perhaps not - but if it does exist it could destroy the company so we don't want to speculate on it. If the gossip has a basis, it will come up in the Courts an be evaluated in the fines... again things we don't want if we hope to keep the company around.
"Condition Z" is an imaginary condition that has no factual basis to it. That's why it must be gossiped about, nobody would need to ask if it was a real thing that existed and had a definition.
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Ferrycraigs
Member
John, I am based in UK so in a similar situation as you. As for the US Class Action, as I understand it, all cars worldwide that are in the same position (in the same Class). But I am not so sure that any California court decision would have any tangible effect in Europe. Tesla may decide to implement the court decision worldwide. But then again......
I also think NHTSA only deals with issues in the USA.
That's basically the worst possible way to respond to fires. It's a non-response and the most illegal response they could have taken. If Tesla had taken no action whatsoever, and cars kept burning, it would be a legitimate defense to say "WE DIDN'T KNOW!" - but if they knew about fires, and did something to mitigate them in secrecy, all the while keeping as many fire-risk cars on the road as they possibly can achieve - all to maintain their malicious secrecy - it's a criminal conspiracy of the highest order, possibly the worst in automotive history, and there have been some egregious crimes that put people in danger before.... but none that publicly acknowledged the problem while simultaneously attempting to keep anyone from being notified of the danger.
We can speculate that the fires and the caps are related, but if they are Tesla is still trying to kill everyone that hasn't updated and that takes the issue from failure to report on time to premeditated attempted murder. The problem isn't addressed until 100% of every impacted battery has had teh owner notified and given a time for their vehicle to be repaired with a part equal or better than original. There is no wiggle room in the law to keep people in danger for the sake of conspiratorial secret keeping.
There are thousands of cars with the potential to spontaneously combust, if there ever was one.
MP3mike marked this post "read" in his unique way
oh I’ve been taking scanmytesla pics since January. I usually 100% charge once per week. I will continue to do this until end of April then I’ll update and do another 100% charge. I’ll have like a good 10-12 captures of “pre-update” showing the actual voltage and capacities and be able to show what they are post update.
Trust me, I’m on top of this because I’m already teedering on barely being able to make it to destinations as I typically arrive at a supercharger with <20 miles remaining. If they cap me and my range drops, I’ll have to add a 3rd supercharger stop to my weekly work commute which is a massive inconvenience.
From door to door, my current commute distance (upstate ny to nyc) is 255 miles. There are superchargers at the 68 (Binghamton), 164 (tannersville), and 238 (Kearny) mile points. On a 100% charge (229 miles, 64.7 “usable full pack), I skip the first one, but make it to tannersville with <20 miles remaining driving at 70mph all highway with no heat or A/C on. So yea I barely have any room. If I need heat or if weather is bad that gets really really tight. My car has shut down with 7 and 12 miles rated range remaining so I have to be careful. Sometimes I need to draft 18 wheelers to make it.
Anywho, I charge back up to 135 rated to make it to Kearny (always giving myself a large buffer given how inaccurate the actual real world ranges are compared to rated). It does hit 118kw charge rate when SOC is like 5-10% but drops fast to about 80kW then to 60kW before I even reach 50%. It’s slow. Very painfully slow. I charge to about 200 miles at Kearny (this takes about 75 minutes). That gives me enough to get to nyc then 3 days later back to tannersville. The car typically loses about 30 miles rated range over 3 days. I leave nyc with 150-160 miles which is barely enough to make it to tannersville. I can’t make it from tannersville back home even on a 100% charge because there is some good uphill that burns 20 miles range. (Also on the flip side on the commute to nyc I do get this “extended free 20 miles range” due to the downhill driving lol so in reality my car barely gets maybe 145-150 miles on a 100% charge if roads were flat). So I also have to stop at binghamton in the way back.
I say all this to say that in an ICE car I can do this 243 mile commute each way in 3.5 hours. In the Tesla, because I need 2 stops, it takes me 5.5 hours. If I update and they nerf the pack, this will likely extend my commute another 45-60 minutes each direction which is just beyond absurd. I might as well go back to an ICE car. Also related this past summer I drove 1250 miles to Orlando which took 29 hours due to all the required charging stops. In an ice car that would’ve taken 18-19. So I’m frustrated already. If my pack gets nerfed it’s going to be the last straw.
I believe Gixx1300R is right. That is what I was thinking as well. We have to wait for the NHTSA investigation and the class action lawsuit proceedings to be complete. And then we use it, so pretty much go back to the service centers and see their new response (even though I completely understand their difficult position, having to lie to us so far). If they go 'we didn't hear' 'we do not know' 'this is Europe' kind of responses, then we just give this easy case to a lawyer locally. My only problem with the above rational approach is that I am Greek and my Mediterranean side is at the moment completely overtaking my Northern European one. After 9 months of promises, I just want to start shouting at someone
This is normal human psychology. It's several phenomena at once, all together. You have genuine refusal to believe - it's tough to confront a difficult fact and denial is itself one of the stages of grief so it's an expected response to bad news. Then you have the "Tesla can do no wrong" Groupthink that comes from a sort of pseudo-religious following around Tesla, reinforced by some real organized opposition. These are usually non-owners but new owners still tend to think like this - I remember early on I was one of them myself. Then there's the actual paid, organized, financially motivated opposition to Tesla as a whole - I'm surprised Tesla's organized opponents haven't picked up batterygate to be honest - maybe they're staying away because it's something Tesla can hang itself with? Then you have the regular self centered "I have mine, screw you and yours" mindset that lacks empathy - others only exist for their personal amusement and victims of Tesla aren't amusing so they need to be silenced. There's bound to be a few of those social media Tesla employees paid to participate on the forums.
We're going to have all of them show up in a thread this large eventually, it's just too big and the topic too high profile for them to ignore it forever. Don't take it personally - this is how all problems created by Tesla are addressed unfortunately. Sadly, though possibly helpfully, any owners that have that "I have mine who cares what happens to you" will eventually be forced to re-evaluate their position when it happens to them and they no longer "have theirs." I remember a discussion coming up like this when the 90kWh packs were being charge throttled in secret... people did the same thing, saying variations of "I have mine who cares" but by now a lot of those unfortunate people have lost theirs to batterygate. It's only a matter of time before every owner is impacted - the 2020 warranty changes say that in plain English - and non owners interested enough to spend all their time here will eventually become owners and learn first hand what ownership is like the way we have.
Hey mods, can you add a Hyperbole button?
I haven't seen this particular one yet although I haven't been out to my car this morning.
This message means they are about to disable openVPN which the current software doesn't use.
Once they do I'll lose app access and voice commands. I may still have google maps and slacker. If so, I'll be content to stay on 8.1.
What will be more interesting is if I lose supercharger access. If they control that with expiring certs, then I would have it until the cert expired and then would seemingly randomly lose supercharger access in the future at possibly a very inconvenient time.
They have also been doing this to force updates:
green on Twitter
Anyone getting the VPN sunset advisory - you should let it sunset. Tesla won't have the ability to force update you ever again, so no more nags. It's something a lot of us wish we had.
green on Twitter
Anyone getting the VPN sunset advisory - you should let it sunset. Tesla won't have the ability to force update you ever again, so no more nags. It's something a lot of us wish we had.
Well people can only speculate I guess from the moment that Tesla is so quite on this subject and its representatives try to convince us that our cars are just fine and that we are all suffering from some form of mass hallucination. Let's not forget that this nasty update happened some weeks after a really scary explosion in Shanghai. An EV exploding like that without even charging (not that it should make any difference) is very serious and does threaten the existence of Tesla so much, that it preferred to treat the early adopters like it does for so many months now (the same people Elon personally thanked for helping pay for the Model 3...) than announcing what they know. Tesla has not even reported this to NHTSA as a potential safety incident. they chose to go to court and be investigated. I wouldn't underestimate so much what this may mean for Tesla.
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