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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

Battpower

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Oct 10, 2019
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Perhaps they only applied the software fix and did no physical repair... but it's still repaired.
I don't agree that it's repaired. I would agree that regardless of whether the car goes into the shop or not, or a mobile tech comes and plugs in a programmer, or software is updated OTA, it might have been reconfigured to apparently give similar performance.

But without a supporting narrative from Tesla, Im not convinced that the two approaches (s/w vs replace h/w) are equal.

I guess with your perspective I can see why you could say that the issue of one specific bmb failure can be worked around with little comprise.
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,721
12,198
Hickory, NC, USA
I don't agree that it's repaired. I would agree that regardless of whether the car goes into the shop or not, or a mobile tech comes and plugs in a programmer, or software is updated OTA, it might have been reconfigured to apparently give similar performance.

But without a supporting narrative from Tesla, Im not convinced that the two approaches (s/w vs replace h/w) are equal.

I guess with your perspective I can see why you could say that the issue of one specific bmb failure can be worked around with little comprise.

It'd be different if the car were sold with a line item something like "Redundant BMS software"... but the reality is that prior to this software fix there was no such redundancy sold, implied, implemented, or otherwise on the table.

Instead, now that this fix is available, they've a) corrected an issue with some existing vehicles, and b) added redundancy the rest of the vehicles.

This seems like a win win.

Further, any vehicle that runs into this issue from now on will automatically be fixed. I don't feel like those people will be wronged in any way as a result.
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
16,416
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Oregon
Further, any vehicle that runs into this issue from now on will automatically be fixed. I don't feel like those people will be wronged in any way as a result.

But we have this person that reports being capped recently... Why wouldn't it have just been fixed?

Fast forward, I get where we were planning to go - much slower thanks to the nerfed SC speeds, but it prompted me to do something I hadn't checked in awhile - the battery report on TeslaFi. Sure enough, it fell off a cliff recently and either by coincidence (or not) it seems to revolve around my car going from 2020.48.37.2 to 2020.48.37.6. I also pulled out my MX+ and loaded up ScanMyTesla for the first time in a long time, and sure enough at 100% charge (Which I almost never do, but needed to for the first leg of our roundtrip home to have some extra buffer), the battery/cell voltages are topping out at 4.08-4.09v. Cell Dif was very small, so things are relatively balanced - however this seems to align with what others ran into with capping.
Maybe the calibration was lost with the upgrade and has to be recalculated?
 

wk057

Vendor & Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,721
12,198
Hickory, NC, USA
But we have this person that reports being capped recently... Why wouldn't it have just been fixed?


Maybe the calibration was lost with the upgrade and has to be recalculated?

Unsure. I don't know of any situation where it should lose the work done to correct the issue once done, unless something changed.
 
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lightningltd

Member
Apr 16, 2018
319
1,367
Trinidad, Ca.
Riddle me this?
FACT: I had 256 miles at 100% PRIOR to 2019.16.
FACT: I SUDDENLY had MUCH less range.
FACT: On Every call to the SC, they stated that it was to protect the longevity of the battery, and most if not all would be restored.
FACT: Now that there is a 'fix', I STILL have NO restoral (in fact the latest update took MORE!)
FACT: In the settlement, Tesla claimed all had been restored or replaced, and a 'few' were not communicating. My car was in service SEVERAL times since then, and is ALWAYS connected.
FACT: Now that my warrantee is over, they call it degradation, even though it happened suddenly after 2019.16
FACT: Tesla has done NOTHING for me except offer to SELL me a refurbished battery.

Anyone care to explain or dispute these FACTS?
I see no offers of help, and no 'comment period' ever offered in the suit or settlement to dispute Teslas so-called facts.
 

WhiteWi

Supporting Member
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Feb 21, 2021
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Somewhere in Universe
Riddle me this?
FACT: I had 256 miles at 100% PRIOR to 2019.16.
FACT: I SUDDENLY had MUCH less range.
FACT: On Every call to the SC, they stated that it was to protect the longevity of the battery, and most if not all would be restored.
FACT: Now that there is a 'fix', I STILL have NO restoral (in fact the latest update took MORE!)
FACT: In the settlement, Tesla claimed all had been restored or replaced, and a 'few' were not communicating. My car was in service SEVERAL times since then, and is ALWAYS connected.
FACT: Now that my warrantee is over, they call it degradation, even though it happened suddenly after 2019.16
FACT: Tesla has done NOTHING for me except offer to SELL me a refurbished battery.

Anyone care to explain or dispute these FACTS?
I see no offers of help, and no 'comment period' ever offered in the suit or settlement to dispute Teslas so-called facts.
A lot of words doesn’t make it fact. Proof makes it fact.
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,635
6,150
how the original warranty actually warranted anything.

Post the language from the warranty that you are concerned about.

Plenty of people had batteries that failed and they got replacement batteries under the warranties.

Plenty of people knew about the concept of battery degradation and some of us also knew that the warranty did not cover any specified level of guaranteed range. That was why we were called early adopters. We paid the price of the uncertainty of battery range over time for being the first ones to have the awesome Model S. A good trade as it turns out because the old Model S batteries are so far performing better than Chevy Bolt and VW batteries etc. by far.

The original battery warranty was clear in what it covered, and what it did not cover.
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,635
6,150
Riddle me this?
FACT: I had 256 miles at 100% PRIOR to 2019.16.
FACT: I SUDDENLY had MUCH less range.
FACT: On Every call to the SC, they stated that it was to protect the longevity of the battery, and most if not all would be restored.
FACT: Now that there is a 'fix', I STILL have NO restoral (in fact the latest update took MORE!)
FACT: In the settlement, Tesla claimed all had been restored or replaced, and a 'few' were not communicating. My car was in service SEVERAL times since then, and is ALWAYS connected.
FACT: Now that my warrantee is over, they call it degradation, even though it happened suddenly after 2019.16
FACT: Tesla has done NOTHING for me except offer to SELL me a refurbished battery.

Anyone care to explain or dispute these FACTS?
I see no offers of help, and no 'comment period' ever offered in the suit or settlement to dispute Teslas so-called facts.
Suppose the warranty were still in effect. What language would you point to to seek warranty coverage? Please quote the exact language from the warranty applicble to your car purchase.

Also it is odd that your post with “FACTS,” actually contains very few facts, for instance the most basic one of your current range or your Teslafi chart.
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,635
6,150
Brilliant thought experiment reframing exactly the functionality of what happened in a slightly new light.

This should affect those who pause their outrage and upset long enough to understand it.

Of course it works for warranty purposes.

Let's take this hypothetical:

  • Your pack has an issue that causes it to make less range available than it should be.
  • You take your car to Tesla.
  • They take your battery and loan you a loaner pack. (This pack may or may not have the range you normally get, but it's temporary.)
  • Your car is usable in the meantime.
  • Some unspecified amount of time later, you take your car back to Tesla and they install your repaired battery pack.
  • Your car has the range it should have again.

You don't know what they did to your pack, if anything. All you know is that the car has the range it's supposed to now. This would be an appropriate fix under warranty, no? Perhaps they only applied the software fix and did no physical repair... but it's still repaired.

Now, in the real world, the exact same thing happened... except without needing to take your car to Tesla, and the loaner pack was your own temporarily de-rated pack. End result is the same: pack is back to normal usability.
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,117
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Uk
Post the language from the warranty that you are concerned about.

I couldn't sort all the quotes, but as per WK below, the 30% limit doesn't apply to the cars we are talking about. Even though WK points out examples that suggest no car will reach 30% range reduction, that doesn't clarify what Tesla's obligation is to owners effected by caps.

Some unspecified amount of time later,

If you mean "give the software fix long enough, and it will be able to work out how to get around the failed sensor / board data", then I get your point, except that when talking warranties, time is of the essence. 'just give us a bit more time.... and drive your car several thousand miles, and we should have a fix for you' isn't a timely warranty repair.

knew that the warranty did not cover any specified level of guaranteed range.

Good for those people. How did they know? Warranty wording? Reasonable assumption? Elon's claims at the time? The warranty language is better now.

What language would you point to to seek warranty coverage?

I'm happy to cite WK's statement that the cars being discussed here don't have a specified lower capacity limit to determine what would automatically trigger a warranty claim.


It'd be different if the car were sold with a line item something like "Redundant BMS software"...

Yes, agreed. You see my thought process.

will automatically be fixed. I don't feel like those people will be wronged in any way

Will automatically be fixed? When? And only if I wait a year and drive to the moon and back. Where is my fix if I don't drive the car very much or need to sell it next week?

this person that reports being capped recently... Why wouldn't it have just been fixed?

Yes, good point. And others too.....

Tesla seems pretty clear that the 30% degradation warranty thing doesn't apply to vehicles from before it was implemented (ie: every car affected by issues in this thread).

Tesla fixed the warranty wording because the warranty was very ambiguous. 'we warrant your battery will meet an unspecified level of performance for an unlimited number of miles'.

added redundancy the rest of the vehicles

Seriously, for an owner of a car with no problem, no change in performance, no issues, that is a great bit of added benefit. Helping owners who get the fault out side of warranty period to avoid buying a new battery is a big deal.

While under warranty it is a different story.

unless something changed.

That's always possible. Would cars that are relying on the software fix respond to future different fault / failure scenarios just the same way as cars with no hardware failure?


Under warranty: replace failed part with working part. Tesla's responsibly. Make car whole, identical to prior to the failure.

Outside warranty : Not Tesla's responsibility except in a moral sense. Helping owners not have to buy a new battery or pay to have board swap is a magnanimous gesture.
 
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Battpower

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Oct 10, 2019
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Uk
It'd be different if the car were sold with a line item something like "Redundant BMS software

But as demonstrated by the software fix, cars do have redundancy in the hardware, and Tesla are using that redundancy to base their work around on. That is clever, but once the work around has managed to take the failed component out of the loop, that redundancy isn't there any more.

Outside warranty - who cares? Just keep the car going and 'use' the redundancy.

In warranty - just fix the broken part, no compromises.
 

mymagiccarpet

Member
Apr 11, 2019
190
438
California
Yes, I rely on @wk057's analysis because I haven't seen any other analysis that makes more sense or better explains the facts.

It is amusing that the complainers still lingering on this thread completely and utterly refuse to engage in any detailed way with his analysis and the facts about the condition of the battery and its sensors and ancillary hardware and how the software and hardware work together, and specifically how the software measures and responds to a wide variety of variables about the battery system hardware and how those hardware components (not just the battery itself, but also sensors) can degrade over time and whether the cause of the degradation is a defect or a function of wear cycles and usage.

And they still doubt his analysis by mere assertion without any basis for doing so. The power of their confirmation bias is truly amazing.

And indeed they don't even bother to read my own posts that they purport to quibble with which clearly stated that the manufacturing defect units got battery replacements under warranty. smh
I don’t doubt what @wk057 is true to the best of his observation and analysis. However, it just doesn’t cover all the cases we see, so there just might be a bit more to the story (to be clear I’m implying he’s not aware of it, NOT that he’s hiding info). Three example here, we all got reduced charge speeds shortly after. My AC still doesn’t work well when it’s hot (read 80deg) - officially nothing is wrong, unofficially, it has to cool the battery (it worked great in All conditions prior to 2019.16). car drains the battery if SOC is above certain % (for me it’s upper 80%). What does this have to do with warranty? Well they did this for some reason, and as they say it’s to ensure longevity of the battery. What happens if these guardrails are not in place? I’ll leave any theories about fires out of this discussion, but it sounds like there could be a premature failure of the pack, in which case it is covered under warranty. Meaning, they either have design, or manufacturing defect which is now known to lead to premature failure. Design defect is typically not covered under warranty unless it fails or is recalled. Btw, I’m not saying this is the truth, it’s just a theory. But the sw fix is simply not a win-win bc it negatively impacted other functions of the car.

in summary, looks like Tesla made sw changes to cars that reduced capacity of batteries until they could come up with a solution to be able to detect this defect, however, after the fix, some cars are not getting their original range back. And if I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying it is bc they had undetected degradation?
i think we’ve disputed the blanket theory about undetected degradation, but there may be a certain % of cars where that is true, however, it is not true for every car. Maybe the cars that didn’t get range back were the ones that had significant undetected degradation - that would sound like undetected manufacturing defect to me and in that case should be covered under warranty. Here is why: they didn’t know this problem existed until 2019, so how can they prove that their test in manufacturing worked? How can they say that the car wasn’t delivered with much lower range than specified? There was no knowledge of this issue from 2012-2019 so it is reasonable to claim that manufacturing did not test for it. Instead they are saying degradation. Ok, when? Before purchase or after? dont know.

They simply should replace those batteries where capacity was not restored, and warranty should have been extended for every impacted car for the duration this “temp” limitation was in place. That would be the right thing to do, and would greatly improve ownership experience for those impacted.
 

Battpower

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Oct 10, 2019
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@WhiteWi , what's missing is transparent tools and better communication from Tesla. Otherwise, regardless of right or wrong, there is no choice but to take their word for whatever they say.

@wk057 ’s post linked to a few posts back is really succinct and full of evidence he has uncovered. But it isn't Tesla's statement. And he has no obligation other than whatever he feels is the right thing to do.

And as WK also points out, in either of his scenarios you just have to take it on trust that you got what you were due.
 

BigNick

Infamous Fat Sweaty Guy
Dec 3, 2017
1,326
1,608
Pennsylvania, USA
I don’t doubt what @wk057 is true to the best of his observation and analysis. However, it just doesn’t cover all the cases we see, so there just might be a bit more to the story (to be clear I’m implying he’s not aware of it, NOT that he’s hiding info). Three example here, we all got reduced charge speeds shortly after. My AC still doesn’t work well when it’s hot (read 80deg) - officially nothing is wrong, unofficially, it has to cool the battery (it worked great in All conditions prior to 2019.16). car drains the battery if SOC is above certain % (for me it’s upper 80%). What does this have to do with warranty? Well they did this for some reason, and as they say it’s to ensure longevity of the battery. What happens if these guardrails are not in place? I’ll leave any theories about fires out of this discussion, but it sounds like there could be a premature failure of the pack, in which case it is covered under warranty. Meaning, they either have design, or manufacturing defect which is now known to lead to premature failure. Design defect is typically not covered under warranty unless it fails or is recalled. Btw, I’m not saying this is the truth, it’s just a theory. But the sw fix is simply not a win-win bc it negatively impacted other functions of the car.
Pre-Palladium Model S cars are known to be non-trackable due to heat issues and lose power on repeated drag runs.

I think the battery cooling system on the oldest Model S cars (85 packs) is underpowered and that is why the Supercharger speeds were nerfed and more air conditioning output is being directed to the battery now. Not because the packs are in danger of going full Bolt, but the heat buildup over time will cause more cells or components to fail. Tesla doesn’t want to have to rebuild/replace/recall thousands of packs at their expense.

They simply should replace those batteries where capacity was not restored, and warranty should have been extended for every impacted car for the duration this “temp” limitation was in place. That would be the right thing to do, and would greatly improve ownership experience for those impacted.
IMO if Tesla were confident about their software fix, they would have extended the 8-year pack warranty to 9 or 10 years for the affected packs, if this fix had been developed earlier. But for many of the packs, sufficient irreversible damage was done prior to the 2019.16.x software deployment. Not damage that would cause spontaneous combustion, but damage to cells or boards from heat exposure, sufficient to trigger a failure condition within the original 8-year period.

Unlike GM, Tesla doesn’t have a steady income stream from ICE trucks and SUVs to cover the costs to replace the packs. They have also likely sold 10x more early-pack cars than GM has sold Bolts.

This entire post is my opinion, and you know what they say about those.
 

WhiteWi

Supporting Member
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Feb 21, 2021
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435
Somewhere in Universe
@WhiteWi , what's missing is transparent tools and better communication from Tesla. Otherwise, regardless of right or wrong, there is no choice but to take their word for whatever they say.

@wk057 ’s post linked to a few posts back is really succinct and full of evidence he has uncovered. But it isn't Tesla's statement. And he has no obligation other than whatever he feels is the right thing to do.

And as WK also points out, in either of his scenarios you just have to take it on trust that you got what you were due.
Sure, Tesla can be more transparent but they are not any worse than Legacy stealer ships. (Actually way better in my personal experience) Also a lot of posts about sudden lose of range is nothing more but miscalibration or people not understanding nature of batteries, people looking to get free batteries out of warranty and etc. Our Leaf dropped 30 miles of range in 3 years, that’s a lot I just traded that piece of junk and went off with my life. I didn’t post on Nissan forums to no avail like lunatic about it. In comparison my 16 S in 5 years lost 19 miles and I still have plenty of range to do long road trips.
 
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Battpower

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,117
2,189
Uk
Our Leaf dropped 30 miles of range

Same with my first Renault. And took same action as you.

The difference for me was that:

Renault gave an extra year of warranty cover as a good will gesture.
There was a clear stated loss of capacity figure from the outset.
Renault perform diag test and stand by the result.
A 3rd party public test tool reliably gives same result as Renault tool.

In my case, 73% capacity remaining at end of 5th year. No complaints. And got a good price at resale.
 
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bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,635
6,150
e. How did they know? Warranty wording?

Tesla fixed the warranty wording because the warranty was very ambiguous. 'we warrant your battery will meet an unspecified level of performance for an unlimited number of miles'.

Yes the warranty wording — but only those who read the warranty.

What you quote is not the warranty. For the tenth time: read the actual warranty. quote the actual warranty. It is silly to complain about a warranty you show no sign of even having read.
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
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Oct 10, 2019
2,117
2,189
Uk
Post a link to the applicable warranty that sets out the basis for battery performance an owner should expect and what remedies the warranty offers in the scenarios being discussed and I'll be pleased to read it.
 

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