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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
16,509
38,671
Oregon
Might be something else. Are the pumps running? Is the car sleeping?
@wk057 posted some reasons for the pumps running, which could be related to the SoC loss:

Reviewed logs from over 100 vehicles with 85 packs on recent firmwares over the past several months.

Pumps run because the contactors are engaged because the DCDC is called for by the gateway because the 12V voltage is too low. There was a change to the firmware sometime in 2019 that "mitigated" the weak 12V issue (ie, making it less likely to need to be replaced despite being weaker than normally permitted) by lowering the 12V float voltage once 12V capacity got lower than normal, which limited the amount of time the car can sit with the DCDC disengaged. For the DCDC to be engaged, the battery loop pump has to run since the DCDC coolant is in parallel with the battery pack (lookup the diag screen thermal screenshots).

TL;DR - Pumps running have nothing to do with the HV battery range loss issue or any other safety issue and everything to do with Tesla not replacing 12V batteries as often.

So a weak 12v battery could cause the DC-DC to stay enabled to keep the car operational. Which causes the pumps to run.

All of that said, most cases I've found where pumps run at full or otherwise above what'd be considered normal vs just low circulating to keep the DCDC cool, end up being the result of a bad pump, fan, compressor, or some other item on the thermal control system not reporting in as it should be. This forces the system to run everything it can since it only has resulting readings as a measure of how effective things are performing.
Or there could be some other component in the cooling system that has failed, or appears to have failed.

Of course if either of those are the reason, it seems that the car knows about it, so it should let the owner know that it needs service so it can get fixed.
 
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aerodyne

Nose cone car - "Going to LR"
Nov 19, 2018
3,126
4,091
Los Angeles
@wk057 posted some reasons for the pumps running, which could be related to the SoC loss:



So a weak 12v battery could cause the DC-DC to stay enabled to keep the car operational. Which causes the pumps to run.


Or there could be some other component in the cooling system that has failed, or appears to have failed.

Of course if either of those are the reason, it seems that the car knows about it, so it should let the owner know that it needs service so it can get fixed.


Good point on the 12V. A simple plug in voltmeter to the accessory socket would show if the 12V was running below 12.5 V more than a few times a day.

Whatever the cause, Tesla should be about to identify it by remote diagnosis.

If it was me, and the 12V was more that two years old, I would replace it and see if that makes a difference.

If the 12V was newer, I'd "Jump" the 12v system with a battery minder or equal 12v 4-10A charger and see if your vampire drain goes down.
 
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Battpower

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,117
2,189
Uk
the car knows about it, so it should let the owner know that it needs service

100% agree. My Kona gives quite a bit of info about its 12v battery. Stupidly, it doesn't appear to charge the 12v unless you actually drive the car (or may be when charging too, not sure on that). But the app shows 12v status and in car there is a warning too if 12v is discharged.

12v status is important enough to warrant a permanent display somewhere.
 

gmo43

Member
Jun 24, 2014
366
645
Mesa
Might be something else. Are the pumps running? Is the car sleeping?

Assuming you have SMT or Teslafi...otherwise it will be hard to diagnose, without getting Tesla Service involved...
Something runs, who knows what I'm not Mr know it all wk045. I just know battery drains way quicker than ever before.
 
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aerodyne

Nose cone car - "Going to LR"
Nov 19, 2018
3,126
4,091
Los Angeles
Something runs, who knows what I'm not Mr know it all wk045. I just know battery drains way quicker than ever before.


Don't despair. Get SMT or equal CANbus reader.

You could have a defect covered under warranty, like a bad coolant or PTC heater.

Many tidbits the be learned. For instance, if you use split a/c, or increase temps more than 2 deg, the car turns on the PTC heater!

Watching what the car does with SMT, my efficiency is increasing. 279 wh/mi year to date and dropping.
 

olsch01

Member
Jan 17, 2018
16
20
Charlotte, NC
Whelp - I opened a service case about 2 weeks ago with Tesla regarding the range loss and they leaned on the normal degradation argument and closed my service case. I had one more decent road trip last weekend to the coast and on the way home - the Nav battery estimates both to the Supercharger and home were all over the map, updating +-20% at times. Then woke up this morning, and the car is dead. TeslaFi says my battery went from 80-100% overnight (Wasn't plugged in), and lost all it's range. About 20 errors on the screen. So perhaps the range wonkiness was due to impending failure that their error checking has no idea about until it actually happens. I'm just thankful it happened in my garage.

Phantom.png
Sat Oct 2.png
 

cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,246
4,409
Central Valley
Whelp - I opened a service case about 2 weeks ago with Tesla regarding the range loss and they leaned on the normal degradation argument and closed my service case. I had one more decent road trip last weekend to the coast and on the way home - the Nav battery estimates both to the Supercharger and home were all over the map, updating +-20% at times. Then woke up this morning, and the car is dead. TeslaFi says my battery went from 80-100% overnight (Wasn't plugged in), and lost all it's range. About 20 errors on the screen. So perhaps the range wonkiness was due to impending failure that their error checking has no idea about until it actually happens. I'm just thankful it happened in my garage.

View attachment 717014View attachment 717013

So, if I understand you correctly, you were concerned about your car's battery. You contacted Tesla service, and they said all was OK (within specs) using their top of the line diagnostic tools. You go home with that warm fuzzy feeling that your car is the way it is supposed to be despite what you have experienced.

Then, a short time later after returning from a short trip, your car battery behaves wonky and dies with a bunch of error codes that spit out.

Why are we to believe anything that Tesla service tells us? Do they not have the proper equipment to perform these important tests? Are the service technicians incompetent and/or lazy? Does Corporate gaff the diagnostic equipment so that every test every time shows that our cars are just fine?

What a con. It is incredulous to me that in 2021 with millions of Teslas on the road, that the service centers cannot determine whether a battery or the BMS is starting to fail. If that indeed is the case, EV adoption by the masses will be much more difficult, since information about the health of the system is not available until the system fails.

At least with ICE, gauges can help sense if there might be major issues, and modest record keeping of MPG can alert us if we think something is wrong. And ICE mechanics have everything at the ready to test and determine if there are issues with the drive train or cooling system.
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,117
2,189
Uk
Why are we to believe anything that Tesla service tells us?
^^^^^^ This!

The other week I called sc (in UK) with a query about my warranty. I was told by 3 agents at two different locations that the warranty had expired on my 2019 MS R. And they stuck to their message keeping a straight face knowing full well this car was sold with new car warranty.

When they create this environment in which you have to challenge everything they say, it should be no surprise when owners lose confidence in them.
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,117
2,189
Uk
EV adoption by the masses will be much more difficult,

There are many hurdles. Here we are just being reminded that energy has to come from somewhere! If you use natural gas to generate electricity and prices shoot up, just as you tanker driver population is hit by immigration / visa policy, your EV fleet doesn't look a whole lot more attractive than gasoline.

Where I live there are loads of newish ice cars on the roads, but still many that are 10 to 15 years old. I am really dubious that anyone has a plan to keep today's EV's running that long and it will be a lot harder for local shops to provide a similar service as they currently do for ICE vehicles.
 

JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
20,674
49,819
Central New York
Then, a short time later after returning from a short trip, your car battery behaves wonky and dies with a bunch of error codes that spit out.

Why are we to believe anything that Tesla service tells us? Do they not have the proper equipment to perform these important tests? Are the service technicians incompetent and/or lazy? Does Corporate gaff the diagnostic equipment so that every test every time shows that our cars are just fine?
Electronics often fail catastrophically with no warning. Unlikely that a bunch of cells suddenly lost capacity, more likely a BMS component failed or something which could have previously tested within range. Also possible that Tesla screwed up of course.
 

tga

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Apr 8, 2014
4,023
2,990
New Hampshire
Electronics often fail catastrophically with no warning. Unlikely that a bunch of cells suddenly lost capacity, more likely a BMS component failed or something which could have previously tested within range. Also possible that Tesla screwed up of course.
Exactly. @olsch01 's experience is very consistent with my battery failure a year ago. Based on the whacky data from SMT, it appeared that something in the voltage sensing path of the BMS failed. I had no warning before the sudden total failure, but the battery was working well up to that point. 251 miles at 100% out of 265 original, so slightly over 5% degradation; 6 years, 90k miles.

The reman replacement also reports exactly 251 miles at 100%. Such a coincidence that I'm guessing it may actually be a bit better, with a slight software cap. I have not dug into the SMT data to confirm/reject my hypothesis.
 
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cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,246
4,409
Central Valley
lectronics often fail catastrophically with no warning. Unlikely that a bunch of cells suddenly lost capacity, more likely a BMS component failed or something which could have previously tested within range. Also possible that Tesla screwed up of course.
e other week I called sc (in UK) with a query about my warranty. I was told by 3 agents at two different locations that the warranty had expired on my 2019 MS R. And they stuck to their message keeping a straight face knowing full well this car was sold with new car warranty.

When they create this environment in which you have to challenge everything they say, it should be no surprise when owners lose confidence in them.

And that is the rub. The unwashed masses like many of us are ignorant and naive. I don't dispute that electronics can fail catastrophically without warning. Nor do I dispute that Tesla's employees will play fast and loose with the truth. What are we to believe?

I chose to purchase the extended warranty coverage after four years. Credit card was charged. About a year later, there were some door handle issues and another issue that needed repair. I contacted through the app for mobile service. The response via anonymous text was that out of warranty repairs must be at a service center. I replied to the text saying that I purchased the extended warranty, and does that not count as a warranty repair? I heard back that my car did not have the extended warranty, but if it did, it would be eligible for mobile service. Really, my money went into a black hole? I pulled up my owner screen, took a picture of the transaction, and attached the photo to my text response with a little bit of snark. Got an appointment the next day for a week down the road. Infer what you will: Human error? Faulty software at the service center? Overworked mobile techs servicing warranty repairs? Lazy office person/scheduler?

Why do we have to go to the dueling text message route?

Waiting for more thumb's down from the usual suspects in 3....2....1
 

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