Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
"Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage is NOT covered" does not apply. The key words are "over time", the energy loss was instantaneous due to the software update.

The point is that the problem certainly developed over time, but became visible to the users instantaneous after new firmware has been installed, which was able to detect the problem. If the sudden drop would have been expected by Tesla, I am sure they would have found a way to decrease the kWh value gradually over a longer time span, to make this additional degradation less noticable.

As I already wrote above, the range value and the kWh value from which this value is derived, is calculated by the BMS and may have nothing to do with the available chemical/physical capacity of the battery, i.e. by doing a standard charge/discharge cycle according the data sheet. The BMS takes all kind of parameters into account and is recalculating continuously. The value not only changes during charging, but also during driving to keep the battery save. The BMS also recalculates the power limits for charging/discharging continuously.

IMHO the available capacity and other limits are calculated on the pure discretion of Tesla. The warranty isn't worth anything here.

That worsening the properties beyond a certain point causes bad consequences for customers should be taken into account by Tesla.

I also see no unbased campaign here against Tesla. All owners seeing this high degradation have a right to know what happened, and what Tesla is doing to minimize the consequences. Better communication would really help here.
 
Last edited:
"Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage is NOT covered" does not apply. The key words are "over time", the energy loss was instantaneous due to the software update.

The Z factor occured over time. It wasn't measured as a flag by the software until a certain update. Whether hardware or software, or the unavoidable combination of the two, the changes occur over time, as opposed to in some unknown fifth dimension.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Guy V and MP3Mike
Many interesting comments and we all knew buying a Telsa there would be pro's and con's. From my perspective I'm enjoying the heck out of this vehicle and can live with my developer continuously working to improve my experience. I've taken greater risks in the market, some good, so great and some a bust. My eyes were always wide open so I'm giving Telsa a chance to do what they do best. In the meantime I'll continue my journey and enjoy this ride and spread the word that EV is the way to go!
 
Many interesting comments and we all knew buying a Telsa there would be pro's and con's. From my perspective I'm enjoying the heck out of this vehicle and can live with my developer continuously working to improve my experience. I've taken greater risks in the market, some good, so great and some a bust. My eyes were always wide open so I'm giving Telsa a chance to do what they do best. In the meantime I'll continue my journey and enjoy this ride and spread the word that EV is the way to go!

I've had my Model S since 2014 and agree that EVs are the way to go. I would love to enjoy Tesla working continuously to improve my experience. However, suddenly limiting 30 miles of range from my vehicle without warning or transparency has definitely not improved my experience. For the first 3 years of ownership, when I had a problem I could call my Tesla service center and get an answer. Tesla has recently cut off phone access to service centers and now directs all phone calls to an "online chat". There is no other car company, after which a customer makes a $100,000 purchase restricts phone access. Not one, except Tesla. Tesla's new mission statement is "We'll sell you a car, but we don't want to hear from you thereafter." How can removing drive range after purchase and restricting phone access to customer service possibly improve my experience?
 
After several rounds back and forth with Tesla's Rocklin, CA service manager, who forwarded my emails to Tesla's "lead battery engineering team" regarding my overnight 30-mile range loss, I today received the following response:

Mr. Wells,

The lead battery engineering team has concluded their assessments of your battery and have found nothing abnormal with the battery.

Your concern regarding firmware dropping range over night is slightly misleading. Each charging cycle reviewed the car was charged to an average of 89.7% or slightly above the 90% threshold which coincides with your mentioned charging habits. When calculating the estimated range at a full 100% charge this places the threshold around 247 miles of useable range. Your battery is 4 year and 7 months old and was rated at 265 EPA estimated range when brand new. As with all vehicles this EPA estimation of range is based upon several internal and external settings. Items included in this are the steady state driving condition of 55 mph on level graded surface with no internal accessories turned on and no external forces providing resistance to the vehicle.

The vehicle battery, like all lithium-ion batteries will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of battery energy or power over time is the result of the use of the battery and is not covered under the battery and drive unit limited warranty, except if these conditions meet the criteria outlined in the battery and drive unit warranty.

The displayed range shows calculated range based on several factors from previous drive cycles. Pulling long term battery logs confirm our conversation where you state you primarily utilize super charging for your charging. As I explained previously if we focus more on charging the vehicle with AC charging you would notice a measurable increase in pack capacity displayed. The firmware that was downloaded provides more accurate and sophisticated set of algorithms which calculate the range available at the charge level of the battery pack.

The range estimation of 256 as you stated varies 8 miles from our calculated range of 247 as previously mentioned.
I hope you can take this provided information and have a deeper understanding of what your calculated range is representing.


Tesla stands by our vehicle warranty and our battery warranties. If there was a fault with the pack outside of standard lithium-ion wear and tear we are always more than happy to provide those services to you and all of our customers.

Respectfully,
Christopher D. Elder | Associate Service Manager, Technical Operations

My reply:

Hi Chris,
This is a completely unacceptable response.

If you check the logs and notice the times I charged to 100% in preparation for a longer driving distance, it would show 250 to 255 miles of range listed on my dashboard. After the firmware update a 100% charge listed 222 miles on my dashboard. I’m well aware of the “gradual” loss of a Tesla battery, and noticed after 4 years of driving a range loss from 265 miles on a full charge to around 255 miles. That is as expected, and I have no issue with a normal gradual loss. The 30-mile range loss after the software update was not gradual or normal. If as you report there is a 247 drive range on my car presently, how is it that the dashboard with a 50% charge reads only 111 miles? I just checked the car and it lists a 37% charge and 81 miles of range. Do the math. That equals less than 220 miles on a full charge.

Obviously, I don’t charge often to 100%, but always kept an eye on how my drive range was going by noticing how many miles of range was available when I had a 50% charge. Before the update when my battery showed a 50% charge, it would list 125-128 miles in driving range. After the update when my battery shows a 50% charge, as of today it now lists a 110 mile driving range.

The Tesla engineering team can attempt to misdirect the issue here by claiming the firmware simply “provides more accurate and sophisticated set of algorithms which calculate the range available at the charge level of the battery pack”, but the truth is my vehicle lost 30 miles of range with the software update. My driving or charging habits have not changed since the software update. Before the update I could drive from my home to Modesto and back to see my daughter without a charge. Before the update I could drive to Truckee without a charge. Now I have to charge for both of these trips.

With Tesla not willing to return the range either with a software update, battery replacement, or $10,700 upgrade paid for the higher range vehicle, I am left with no option but to seek restitution through an NCDS claim, which I will be filing tomorrow.

Thanks Chris for your time and attention on this issue over the last couple of week and for your following up with your engineering team to bring back their response.

Respectfully,
-Danny

In previous correspondence I expressed my reluctance to enter into litigation or arbitration over this issue. However, I assured them that with a $100,000 purchase price, if Tesla is not willing to provide restitution in terms of either a software correction to restore range, a battery replacement with the range I purchased, or a $10,700 refund for the additional range purchased that has been removed, I would not hesitate to enter into arbitration or participate in class action litigation. I also reported to them that at least one Tesla owner affected with the range loss has filed an NCDS claim, which has been accepted, indicating their viewing this issue as arbitration worthy.

Yup, I’m awaiting a date. The Arbitrator has been appointed.
 
Since my last post, I've gathered quite a bit of electronic and physical data on this issue. At this point, I'm reasonably certain of the details at this point, but I don't think going into detail here is going to help anything at this moment. I'd also like to gather additional physical datapoints, and give Tesla some room on this for now. So, apologies for being a little vague here for now.

I have a dialog going with two different groups at Tesla on this issue at the moment. (Admittedly, seems like neither group knows the other is communicating with me, but that's Tesla's excellent internal communication for you. /s) Both seem to be productive, however, so I'm going to continue them in the hopes of a solution.

Neither contact will admit to anything bad, obviously. But a few takeaways:

  • I'm pretty convinced that the people who made this "fix" were unaware there was going to be any significant impact to anyone's usable range.
    • Specifically, my understanding is that the change was a proactive measure to detect a very uncommon long-term failure mode of the battery. The conditions they were testing for didn't appear to exist in any battery in the fleet, but adding a check and mitigation was to be a preventative safety measure.
  • The new test/fix they added seems to have inadvertently activated based on another completely separate set of triggers in some batteries.
  • The people I've spoken to so far seemed genuinely unaware of this particular trigger being the trip up here, and are looking into it in more detail.
  • Detecting this is a good thing, but the "fix" applied is not the best for what's actually the trigger here.

Again, sorry to be vague. Suffice it to say the details won't really help anyone right now anyway.

I'm also hesitant to say it, since, again, I don't want to inflate this issue beyond where it already is and cause further speculation, but: If you have a car with an 85-type pack (85 or 70) then you should probably update if you either supercharge a lot, charge to 100% often, or both.

No, I'm not saying your car is going to explode or otherwise have other issues if you don't update, so don't take it like that, but I do believe that what is being detected is an issue that will eventually need to be addressed one way or another, whether or not there is a safety issue involved, and if you are in that group it'd be better to know than not know.

Again, I want to give Tesla a good faith opportunity to work this all out before I start throwing things out their publicly. Right now, I do believe this particular situation isn't something they were originally aware of and just kind of stumbled across once this update hit the masses. They have been working to determine a reason for. I'm pretty sure my input is pushing that along in the right direction.

We're all painfully aware that Tesla has serious internal and public communication issues. Since the changes in the updates don't appear to have been intended to impact anyone at all at this point, they definitely did not seem to be prepared for reports of lost range and such, hence the canned responses to the same. Hopefully they'll better address this soon.

As most here are aware, I give Tesla a lot of grief on things when they, well, screw people over and deserve to be called out on their shenanigans. At this point, I don't believe there was any bad intention, so unless that changes, let's cut them a little slack for now and give them a chance to get things right.

And, if they don't, I think there is a lot of pressure that affected owners can put on them one way or another.


Hey There, I have a 2013 P85+ and I've already updated to 2019.16.2 a few weeks ago. I have seen no change in battery range. Am I one of the lucky ones who dodged a bullet or should I not accept the next update that is presently being offered to me? (I can't tell which update that will be) I prefer to keep the range I currently have, if possible. Thanks
 
"Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage is NOT covered" does not apply. The key words are "over time", the energy loss was instantaneous due to the software update.
That approach is not going to fly in any venue. The degradation did occur over time; recognizing and reporting it is recent and sudden.
 
Not seeing the drop in range with the new software. 90% on a 90 battery shows 235 or so miles (this was a charge from <1% or 1 mile RM remaining to 90% just yesterday) before a long trip.

235 / .9 = 260 mile, about 10 miles off of the EPA rated 270 for this vehicle.

Can't recall ever needing to charge to 100% when visiting California. Just not needed. Now, going from St. George to Bryce Canyon ... Even through Death Valley, it just wasn't necessary.
 
That approach is not going to fly in any venue. The degradation did occur over time; recognizing and reporting it is recent and sudden.
The degradation that occurs over time and the range loss that occurred due to the update are 2 different things. Both started with same set fall but the range loss was due to a deliberate action by Tesla (updated software).
 
  • Like
Reactions: DJRas
The Z factor occured over time. It wasn't measured as a flag by the software until a certain update. Whether hardware or software, or the unavoidable combination of the two, the changes occur over time, as opposed to in some unknown fifth dimension.
In general I agree.
But, without ANY data regarding what the issue actually is, this is still speculation.
It could be some one single event (charging in freezing temperatures, etc). Yes, this is just speculation with zero data to back anything.
We DESERVE open information from Tesla. Especially IF it is a battery safety issue (will MY battery burst into flames?). If that is the case then independent 3rd party should be involved (NTSB, etc)
 
  • Love
Reactions: Droschke
Hey There, I have a 2013 P85+ and I've already updated to 2019.16.2 a few weeks ago. I have seen no change in battery range. Am I one of the lucky ones who dodged a bullet or should I not accept the next update that is presently being offered to me? (I can't tell which update that will be) I prefer to keep the range I currently have, if possible. Thanks

Yes, you are luckY and have dodged the X and Z bullets. Your battery falls under the Y category ;).
 
  • Funny
Reactions: jaitch
Result of the "damage" is a battery fire. If there is no battery fire then there is no "damage" ....snip.....
maybe consider how there are many a young lad that hace used a magnifying glass to set bugs on fire. By the logic above, the bug suffers no damage ..... until & unless it's little exoskeleton goes ablaze.
;)
.
 
Last edited:
  • Funny
Reactions: egn1 and Droschke
After several rounds back and forth with Tesla's Rocklin, CA service manager, who forwarded my emails to Tesla's "lead battery engineering team" regarding my overnight 30-mile range loss, I today received the following response...
Only a suggestion, but it might be a good idea not to reference your 50% charge level. This gives Tesla an opportunity to obfuscate by saying that anything less than 100% is only an estimate. I suggest you charge to 100%, take a screen shot of the rate range display, and deliver that in response to the email where they, themselves, identified your 100% range to be over 240 miles. Challenge them there.

By the way, to those saying the "sudden range loss" should trigger the warranty... imho it's not that the capacity is actually lost, it's limited. (At least as far as I understand wks07).
You don't think Tesla removing usable range from your vehicle would be considered a "sudden range loss" to the consumer?
 
As I already wrote above, the range value and the kWh value from which this value is derived, is calculated by the BMS and may have nothing to do with the available chemical/physical capacity of the battery, i.e. by doing a standard charge/discharge cycle according the data sheet. The BMS takes all kind of parameters into account and is recalculating continuously. The value not only changes during charging, but also during driving to keep the battery save. The BMS also recalculates the power limits for charging/discharging continuously.

I do not have an 85 pack (but rather a 75) so it would appear this whole conversation does not impact me but what you said above is interesting, as I have NEVER seen any change in my full charge 'miles' despite times that I drove (for weeks) in just local/low speed/no rush 'mode' air and for multiple days when on vacation driving 80 mph with AC on. I have done a 'run down to below 10% and then fully charge slowly to 100%' several times in a row but it didn't matter - I've always see 233-234 miles at 100%, 214-215 miles at 90%. I would have expected that when driving at 30-55MPH it would go up but not so (we have a Volt as well and it does change noticeable in the above scenario).

Are you sure the BMS constantly 'updates'? If so, I have to believe mine is broken :)